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  1. #61
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    If they had fresh off his Ultimate Spider-Man or Daredevil Bendis maybe. But modern Bendis? I doubt it. It will be very interesting to see how Bendis Batman actually sells (no clue if he actually will get the title but he seems to be the top candidate).
    Batman would be a top 10 ten book and sell in the 80-100k range. Because that's just Batman now.

    If they put him on Green Arrow, Question, etc. it'd be the same as Superman. You'd hit high numbers on the #1 and it'll level off at somewhere in the 35-40K range. Young Justice is popular, has a TV show, it's Bendis' sweet spot in teenage characters and it hasn't been controversial at all, if anything it's completely fan servicey bringing back Bart, Conner, Cassie & Tim and it's selling in the low 30's last time I checked.
    Last edited by Yoda; 05-28-2019 at 06:32 PM.

  2. #62
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Commercial Superman book are fine numbers among the best selling comics. I haven't seen anything super critical of Bendis run so I don't know what to say about that part.Simple put to me it seems people expect books to always sell like they have in past. I see it from X-men fans as well they murder the sales numbers when the reality the book is among the best selling books just lower top 25 just not a top anymore. I guess the real question is why doesn't Bendis doesn't superman on the upper half of top 25 books. The answer could be two things

    A. Bendis is the wrong writer for Superman
    B. Superman does not appeal to fans as much other style of characters
    Can we add "C. The IP has been mismanaged for so long it's driven a lot of people away who won't return just because the same people at the same company put a different name on the cover."?

    Bendis is doing fine. The numbers are where Superman normally sells and his run isn't doing any worse than what we've seen in the last decade. Bendis isn't the hot item he was fifteen years ago, so expecting a huge jump is a fallacy.
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  3. #63
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Can we add "C. The IP has been mismanaged for so long it's driven a lot of people away who won't return just because the same people at the same company put a different name on the cover."?

    Bendis is doing fine. The numbers are where Superman normally sells and his run isn't doing any worse than what we've seen in the last decade. Bendis isn't the hot item he was fifteen years ago, so expecting a huge jump is a fallacy.
    Oh yeah, that's a huge part of it, too.
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  4. #64
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Can we add "C. The IP has been mismanaged for so long it's driven a lot of people away who won't return just because the same people at the same company put a different name on the cover."?

    Bendis is doing fine. The numbers are where Superman normally sells and his run isn't doing any worse than what we've seen in the last decade. Bendis isn't the hot item he was fifteen years ago, so expecting a huge jump is a fallacy.
    Yeah, I think this a big part of it. The lack of a truly great Superman movie or cartoon in many, many years has eroded the character's prominence in the popular culture. In addition to Seigel & Shuster's comics, the impact of the radio show, the Fleisher cartoons, the various TV shows, and the lightning in the bottle that was the Christopher Reeve film kept the character alive and kept bringing in new fans. Unfortunately, the last time that Superman was a truly big deal in the public consciousness was when they killed him off in '93.

    There's also the fact that the concerns and anxieties of the modern world are very different, as a result people are more interested in heroes dealing with the themes of trauma, fame, money, & technology, like Batman & Iron Man, along with Spider-Man, who absorbed some of Superman/Superboy's strongest elements decades ago. Even the success of a more classic hero like Captain America was buoyed by the surge in patriotism following 9/11 and our concerns with espionage and the power of the state.

    I think Superman's themes are still relevant and resonant, but it will take a fresh new big screen adaptation that showcases them for the public perception of Superman to change. Bendis's run has managed to do some great work that filmmakers will hopefully mine (while steering clear of his missteps). But, this requires Warner Bros. to figure out why Superman is so special to people and find someone who can successfully execute that vision.

  5. #65
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I think Superman's themes are still relevant and resonant, but it will take a fresh new big screen adaptation that showcases them for the public perception of Superman to change. Bendis's run has managed to do some great work that filmmakers will hopefully mine (while steering clear of his missteps). But, this requires Warner Bros. to figure out why Superman is so special to people and find someone who can successfully execute that vision.
    The thing I've believed for years is that if you want Superman to make a splash and show people that he and his themes are still relevant, just go back to the start. 1940 Superman dealt with corrupt politicians, greedy businessmen, low-life wife beaters, etc. Sound familiar? These are the same things we're dealing with today.

    The problem, I believe, is the corporate management. WB wants a Superman who is so totally inoffensive he no longer actually says anything. You want the IP to matter and you want people to realize that Superman still matters and is still the best of the best? Hes gotta say something again. Eighty years ago, S&S had Superman fight the problems they saw in their own world, in their own neighborhood. And it turned the character into a global icon.

    If WB wants Superman to be a real contender in the world, all they have to do is let him engage with it again. Yes, it'll piss some people off. Who cares? It'll also inspire others.

    Dont get me wrong, Im not interested in seeing Clark become a mouthpiece for a political agenda. And it doesn't have to be hammered home with a sledgehammer. Don't go overboard with it. But punching aliens in the face isn't going to make Superman relevant again. Superman going after the problems we actually have? That'll start a conversation. And its not as difficult to write as a lot of people think, either.
    Last edited by Ascended; 05-29-2019 at 06:00 PM.
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  6. #66
    Astonishing Member Nick Miller's Avatar
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    Yeah, no to Sups tackling spousal abuse, or the opioid crisis.

    Good god, I don’t want the real world in my comics!!

  7. #67
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    The thing I've believed for years is that if you want Superman to make a splash and show people that he and his themes are still relevant, just go back to the start. 1940 Superman dealt with corrupt politicians, greedy businessmen, low-life wife beaters, etc. Sound familiar? These are the same things we're dealing with today.

    The problem, I believe, is the corporate management. WB wants a Superman who is so totally inoffensive he no longer actually says anything. You want the IP to matter and you want people to realize that Superman still matters and is still the best of the best? Hes gotta say something again. Eighty years ago, S&S had Superman fight the problems they saw in their own world, in their own neighborhood. And it turned the character into a global icon.

    If WB wants Superman to be a real contender in the world, all they have to do is let him engage with it again. Yes, it'll piss some people off. Who cares? It'll also inspire others.

    Dont get me wrong, Im not interested in seeing Clark become a mouthpiece for a political agenda. And it doesn't have to be hammered home with a sledgehammer. Don't go overboard with it. But punching aliens in the face isn't going to make Superman relevant again. Superman going after the problems we actually have? That'll start a conversation. And its not as difficult to write as a lot of people think, either.
    I think a film adapting Morrison's early New 52 Superman incarnation would be the best way to do that. That version may have fizzled out quickly in the comics thanks to poor planning and mismanagement, but the core of that idea is potent as all hell because it returns the character to his anti-establishment roots.

  8. #68
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick Miller View Post
    Yeah, no to Sups tackling spousal abuse, or the opioid crisis.

    Good god, I don’t want the real world in my comics!!
    It has to be done with care, but the more disconnected Superman is from our real world concerns and anxieties, the less relevant he becomes.

    The opioid crisis is not something that could work cinematically, but seeing Superman throw a wife beater out a window, or smash corrupt businessmen and politicians as both journalist and a caped champion of the underdog is something that I think a lot of people around the world would get behind, irregardless of their political affiliation. If you throw in Brainiac for some good ol' fashion robot fist to cuffs, I think you've got a real crowd pleaser on your hands.

  9. #69
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    It has to be done with care, but the more disconnected Superman is from our real world concerns and anxieties, the less relevant he becomes.

    The opioid crisis is not something that could work cinematically, but seeing Superman throw a wife beater out a window, or smash corrupt businessmen and politicians as both journalist and a caped champion of the underdog is something that I think a lot of people around the world would get behind, irregardless of their political affiliation. If you throw in Brainiac for some good ol' fashion robot fist to cuffs, I think you've got a real crowd pleaser on your hands.
    Yeah, I'm of this mind too. Much like good establishing moment in the Donner film was a moment with Lois followed by a montage, I think that could still work. That's where you could include the moment where he booms in and stops domestic violence. Maybe throw that guy across the room and then carry him off to the police.

    Superman needs to be more than the custodian that deals with the big stuff if he's going to be a champion of the people. I love that he pulls cats out of trees and stops jumpers (absolutely should be a moment in the next film) by talking to them, but he needs to address larger issues to. Spousal abuse, corrupt law officials, etc.

    Superman has always struck me as the kind of man who respects the police completely but would be first to get in the way of an officer abusing their badge. Same for any office of influence straight to the top.

    Hell, if you want to keep him grounded, maybe make it a film about President Lex and avoid big set pieces. Really make it a film that can't be resolved with force.

    I'll be the only one in that theater but I promise to buy at least a row of tickets!

  10. #70
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Yeah, I'm of this mind too. Much like good establishing moment in the Donner film was a moment with Lois followed by a montage, I think that could still work. That's where you could include the moment where he booms in and stops domestic violence. Maybe throw that guy across the room and then carry him off to the police.

    Superman needs to be more than the custodian that deals with the big stuff if he's going to be a champion of the people. I love that he pulls cats out of trees and stops jumpers (absolutely should be a moment in the next film) by talking to them, but he needs to address larger issues to. Spousal abuse, corrupt law officials, etc.

    Superman has always struck me as the kind of man who respects the police completely but would be first to get in the way of an officer abusing their badge. Same for any office of influence straight to the top.

    Hell, if you want to keep him grounded, maybe make it a film about President Lex and avoid big set pieces. Really make it a film that can't be resolved with force.

    I'll be the only one in that theater but I promise to buy at least a row of tickets!
    I'd save President Lex for a sequel. Given our current predicament, it's bound to be unnecessarily divisive. Everyone can get behind the idea of a guy taking on corruption by the rich and powerful. Making the baddie the President right now is just going to alienate too many people. In a few years from now, once this $#!*show is in the rearview mirror, I think everyone will have a little more...perspective on the issue.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    The thing I've believed for years is that if you want Superman to make a splash and show people that he and his themes are still relevant, just go back to the start. 1940 Superman dealt with corrupt politicians, greedy businessmen, low-life wife beaters, etc. Sound familiar? These are the same things we're dealing with today.

    The problem, I believe, is the corporate management. WB wants a Superman who is so totally inoffensive he no longer actually says anything. You want the IP to matter and you want people to realize that Superman still matters and is still the best of the best? Hes gotta say something again. Eighty years ago, S&S had Superman fight the problems they saw in their own world, in their own neighborhood. And it turned the character into a global icon.

    If WB wants Superman to be a real contender in the world, all they have to do is let him engage with it again. Yes, it'll piss some people off. Who cares? It'll also inspire others.

    Dont get me wrong, Im not interested in seeing Clark become a mouthpiece for a political agenda. And it doesn't have to be hammered home with a sledgehammer. Don't go overboard with it. But punching aliens in the face isn't going to make Superman relevant again. Superman going after the problems we actually have? That'll start a conversation. And its not as difficult to write as a lot of people think, either.
    I agree with this 100%.
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  12. #72
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I'd save President Lex for a sequel. Given our current predicament, it's bound to be unnecessarily divisive. Everyone can get behind the idea of a guy taking on corruption by the rich and powerful. Making the baddie the President right now is just going to alienate too many people. In a few years from now, once this $#!*show is in the rearview mirror, I think everyone will have a little more...perspective on the issue.
    While I agree, I also don't see that movie coming out for at least five more years, so I considered the current president in the rear view already for that post.

    But ideally, Brainiac. Great villain, primarily for the modern age, and we've seen enough Lex. Still, I love President Luthor, at least in concept.

  13. #73
    D*mned Prince of Gotham JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    The thing I've believed for years is that if you want Superman to make a splash and show people that he and his themes are still relevant, just go back to the start. 1940 Superman dealt with corrupt politicians, greedy businessmen, low-life wife beaters, etc. Sound familiar? These are the same things we're dealing with today.

    The problem, I believe, is the corporate management. WB wants a Superman who is so totally inoffensive he no longer actually says anything. You want the IP to matter and you want people to realize that Superman still matters and is still the best of the best? Hes gotta say something again. Eighty years ago, S&S had Superman fight the problems they saw in their own world, in their own neighborhood. And it turned the character into a global icon.

    If WB wants Superman to be a real contender in the world, all they have to do is let him engage with it again. Yes, it'll piss some people off. Who cares? It'll also inspire others.

    Dont get me wrong, Im not interested in seeing Clark become a mouthpiece for a political agenda. And it doesn't have to be hammered home with a sledgehammer. Don't go overboard with it. But punching aliens in the face isn't going to make Superman relevant again. Superman going after the problems we actually have? That'll start a conversation. And its not as difficult to write as a lot of people think, either.
    I totally agree with you there. It would need to be handled carefully but it would go a long way toward making Superman more relevant to today's audience. Personally I'd really like to see him dealing with problems we are actually facing as a nation and I think that the idea that Superman is also a family man now could be used to spring board to that. For example I'd really like to see how Supes would deal with a school shooting scenario at a school that Jon happens to attend. Things like that would get people talking.
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  14. #74
    Mighty Member Lokimaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    The audience for Superman books really seems to be like 40K-50K for Superman and 35K-45K for Action. Events and relaunches move it up or down a bit, but it seems to revert to that mean.

    Bendis is probably selling slightly better than average, and his books are performing pretty well for the market as a whole. Short of like Alan Moore coming on board for a 100 issue opus or Jim Lee taking over regular art duties I don't think the Superbooks get into the Bat-Tier regular monthly sales barring a major shift in the market.
    For Superman to truly reach must read status they are going to have to fundamentally change the character in ways his hardcore fans won't be comfortable with and they want no part of that so are perfectly happy to keep Superman at those levels cause then he remains theirs even if it hurts the character in the long run.

  15. #75
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokimaru View Post
    For Superman to truly reach must read status they are going to have to fundamentally change the character in ways his hardcore fans won't be comfortable with and they want no part of that so are perfectly happy to keep Superman at those levels cause then he remains theirs even if it hurts the character in the long run.
    I don't know what you mean by fundamental changes. New 52 had pretty drastic changes throughout the course of the run. From the younger Morrison version, Lobell's take, through Pak and Johns up into Truth. They changed his job, costume, his family, his love interest, and eventually stripped him of his powers and secret identity. All of that resulted in the same sales trajectory we saw with what people see as a more traditional take with Rebirth and now Bendis. It's the same pattern. A spike with the change and then settling back down to the baseline sales. Arguably, the biggest fundamental changes, the loss of his powers, return to street level fights, and loss of his secret identity in Truth resulted in the bottom falling out of sales completely.

    How much fundamental change do you think is necessary to attract these new fans that would sustain it a Batman level sales? Because I'm not talking about a year or so of boosted sales off of a relaunch or event, etc. Batman level popularity sustains sales of the book across those things and through a long run.

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