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  1. #61
    Incredible Member Maestro 216's Avatar
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    It's almost like turning him heel after a good anti hero run was a bad idea.

  2. #62
    Benefactor / Malefactor H-E-D's Avatar
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    I have never once enjoyed a Sabretooth appearance.

  3. #63
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    I have never once enjoyed a Sabretooth appearance.
    It may have just been the time, but there was a LOT of seemingly forced effort in the 90s. From my aged retro-perspective, I'm led to believe that Marvel was trying to build a bank of Wolverine "badass" types in the early 90s. Wolverine himself, Sabretooth, Maverick, Cable... Deadpool sorta, Bishop kinda. I'm sure there were others, it was a heady time. Basically bankable characters that could lead their own series, appearances, branded merch.

    Deadpool was the only one that really succeeded, and then only because he was utilized for irreverent comedic potential.

    Meanwhile, the women plugged along, leading the animation, being iconic, teaching the children.

    ****

    I've made my case and laid my thoughts about Sabretooth in other threads. But yeah, I think he's redundant in a modern context that doesn't applaud or reward murderous violent masculine archetypes.
    Last edited by CRaymond; 05-08-2020 at 01:50 PM.

  4. #64
    Mighty Member houndsofluv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by H-E-D View Post
    I have never once enjoyed a Sabretooth appearance.
    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    It may have just been the time, but there was a LOT of seemingly forced effort in the 90s. From my aged retro-perspective, I'm led to believe that Marvel was trying to build a bank of Wolverine "badass" types in the early 90s. Wolverine himself, Sabretooth, Maverick, Cable... Deadpool sorta, Bishop kinda. I'm sure there were others, it was a heady time. Basically bankable characters that could lead their own series, appearances, branded merch.

    Deadpool was the only one that really succeeded, and then only because he was utilized for irreverent comedic potential.

    Meanwhile, the women plugged along, leading the animation, being iconic, teaching the children.
    lol sometimes I wish there was some kind of upvote feature on here

  5. #65
    Extraordinary Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CRaymond View Post
    It may have just been the time, but there was a LOT of seemingly forced effort in the 90s. From my aged retro-perspective, I'm led to believe that Marvel was trying to build a bank of Wolverine "badass" types in the early 90s. Wolverine himself, Sabretooth, Maverick, Cable... Deadpool sorta, Bishop kinda. I'm sure there were others, it was a heady time. Basically bankable characters that could lead their own series, appearances, branded merch.

    Deadpool was the only one that really succeeded, and then only because he was utilized for irreverent comedic potential.

    Meanwhile, the women plugged along, leading the animation, being iconic, teaching the children.

    ****

    I've made my case and laid my thoughts about Sabretooth in other threads. But yeah, I think he's redundant in a modern context that doesn't applaud or reward murderous violent masculine archetypes.
    So what's Wolverine's excuse?

  6. #66
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    So what's Wolverine's excuse?
    I don't think his violence is ever rewarded --rather, I think his choices are. Wolverine is who he is because of what he protects. I think it's a bit simple to suggest the strength of the Wolverine character is in his bloodthirsty rage.

    I don't know enough about Sabretooth to suggest a place for him in the X-Men context that isn't to primarily serve as a foil to Wolverine and a vicious threat to the others. I'm willing to be critical and creative toward that effort but I need to understand his limits, and from what I understand Victor Creed is just a big bloody red vmeme.

  7. #67
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Both men kill but unlike Sabretooth, Wolverine does have a code of honor. Sabretooth kills for sport and draws pleasure out of the sadistic pain he inflicts. He's also an unapologetic rapist and very little if any redeeming qualities.



    Never forget
    Last edited by Havok83; 05-08-2020 at 05:08 PM.

  8. #68
    Deadly Bee Weapon coveredinbees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Both men kill but unlike Sabretooth, Wolverine does have a code of honor. Sabretooth kills for sport and draws pleasure out of the sadistic pain he inflicts. He's also an unapologetic rapist and very little if any redeeming qualities.



    Never forget
    Even Viper won't kill below the legal limit!

  9. #69
    Extraordinary Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    Both men kill but unlike Sabretooth, Wolverine does have a code of honor. Sabretooth kills for sport and draws pleasure out of the sadistic pain he inflicts. He's also an unapologetic rapist and very little if any redeeming qualities.



    Never forget
    Sabretooth being a rapist is as convoluted as anything else. Silver Fox was a memory implant. And since that reveal, the only 2 writers brought it up 20 years later, and that was Aaron & Loeb, who aren't known for their wonderful X-Men writing & characterization. lol

    But if we go by Aaron, he depicted Mystique as a rapist as well. So add that to her list, with even has fewer redeeming qualities than Creed. Yet she is one of the biggest Villain Sues Karma Houdinis, and' pet characters. I guess female privilege keeps her safe.

    Sabretooth is pretty much no worse than the other X-villains. Especially at this point when he's shown repeatedly to be annoying rather than dangerous. Yet he's the only villain that's ever humiliated on a consist basis. Classic Jobber and Butt Monkey. Of course, those 2 things are pretty much the same.

    Omega Red is worse than Sabretooth since he's killed just as much in a shorter lifespan, has less humanity than Creed, and is stated to be a child molester. Yet he's living it up on Krakoa with Magneto giving him a pass to kill mutant children. If these characters are being written & used correctly there is no way Creed should've gone into the hole before he did.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 05-08-2020 at 08:45 PM.

  10. #70
    Mighty Member BlkGldBlu's Avatar
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    Sabertooth just needs to be taken seriously again.
    I don't care if Cyclops, Storm or Wolverine was there, I never felt safe with Creed in the room.

  11. #71
    Invincible Member Havok83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    Sabretooth being a rapist is as convoluted as anything else. Silver Fox was a memory implant. And since that reveal, the only 2 writers brought it up 20 years later, and that was Aaron & Loeb, who aren't known for their wonderful X-Men writing & characterization. lol

    But if we go by Aaron, he depicted Mystique as a rapist as well. So add that to her list, with even has fewer redeeming qualities than Creed. Yet she is one of the biggest Villain Sues Karma Houdinis, and' pet characters. I guess female privilege keeps her safe.

    Sabretooth is pretty much no worse than the other X-villains. Especially at this point when he's shown repeatedly to be annoying rather than dangerous. Yet he's the only villain that's ever humiliated on a consist basis. Classic Jobber and Butt Monkey. Of course, those 2 things are pretty much the same.

    Omega Red is worse than Sabretooth since he's killed just as much in a shorter lifespan, has less humanity than Creed, and is stated to be a child molester. Yet he's living it up on Krakoa with Magneto giving him a pass to kill mutant children. If these characters are being written & used correctly there is no way Creed should've gone into the hole before he did.
    I’m pretty sure he raped Birdie. Memory implant or not, it’s not beyond the realm of possibility that he’s raped others as the implication is there that he has it in him

  12. #72
    Extraordinary Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Havok83 View Post
    I’m pretty sure he raped Birdie. Memory implant or not, it’s not beyond the realm of possibility that he’s raped others as the implication is there that he has it in him
    Wolverine has it in him too given some of his forceful & stalker-like behavior. Daken is a rapist. What's the excuse for Mystique & Omega Red? Rapists that don't get half Sabretooth's judgement or humiliation.

    Nobody has yet to answer what Sabretooth only possibly being a rapist is worse than Omega Red, Mystique, and Daken who also are as well.

    The Joker is a domestic abuser, and rapist from what I hear from DC Batman fans. Yet he's got his own film, been made child friendly in shows, and may still be treated as a genuine danger to Batman.

    So Sabretooth's evil isn't a valid excuse for what's happened to his character over the last 17 years.

  13. #73
    Extraordinary Member CRaymond's Avatar
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    This whataboutism doesn’t help your advocacy or goodwill.

    There are a lot of people here that want a less unpredictable Mystique, less sympathetic Daken, less welcomed Omega Red, but this thread is about the potential strength and creative pitfalls that exist for Sabretooth.

  14. #74
    Extraordinary Member Silver Fang's Avatar
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    I'm here to discuss characters, not goodwill. Lol Neither is connected.

    And the bias with his character plays into that. Some argue his character has fallen off over the years due to not working in the climate, which is not valid given all the characters we have with similar to worse qualities. So a better argument or reason is needed there for how his character doesn't or can't work. Because it's clearly not how evil or violent he is.

    The only problem with the climate is bad writers not making effort outside of their pets & changing, regressing, or ignoring characterization to fit whatever narrative they want to push. And so far, DOX hasn't beem much different.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 05-09-2020 at 06:59 AM.

  15. #75
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Oh, boo-hoo. The character does bad things.

    Guess what? He's a BAD GUY.

    You're not supposed to like what he's doing. You're supposed to be cheering for the people trying to stop him.

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