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Thread: The Big Debates

  1. #16
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    I'll take the McFarlane with uhhhhh... extra cheese, no mayo, no spread, and some fries.

    I don't like the black costume much, seems a bit too bland to use on the regular.

    Underarm webbing should start before his elbows and end above or just at his ribs. Ditko had them larger but that would look too off with how the character's image has been perceived over the years.

    The original Spider-Mobile is so lame that it's perfect for Spider-Man. The modern one is actually too cool, which is why he couldn't keep it for long.
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  2. #17
    Astonishing Member CrimsonEchidna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    So you don't think something like the Marvel's Spider-Man cartoon, where they're forced into Peter's supporting cast, works by comparison? And that they shouldn't really be involved in Peter Parker stories?
    I think we've talked about this before, but I definitely think the PS4 game has done the best job of "organically" inserting Miles into Peter's story. Of course there, Peter is a post-grad in his 20s and Miles is a teenager, so they avoid that awkward "they're both kids who happened to be bit around the same time."
    The artist formerly known as OrpheusTelos.

  3. #18
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    So you're a Ditko Gwen fan ?

    So you don't think something like the Marvel's Spider-Man cartoon, where they're forced into Peter's supporting cast, works by comparison? And that they shouldn't really be involved in Peter Parker stories?
    Adaptations are different because of limited stories and the ability to make fundamental changes. I think setting up others as supporting characters and then giving them powers can work, but after that, you're stuck with the Shazam family and have a lot more balls to juggle. If they're ready to lean into that, it could be great and we can get a lot of stories that would just be kinda awkward in the books. If they're not, things can get messy. But I also think those characters can work to spruce up the cast without having to get powers. That can have lots of value, too.

    DISCLAIMER: Have not watched current cartoon.

    And yes, Ditgod Gwen was the best.
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  4. #19
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    [*]Ditko or Romita, who has the better take on Spider-Man?
    Ditko got the whole ball rolling, but Romita took it and improved everything about it.

    [*]Should Peter Parker be married to Mary Jane?
    No.

    [*]What's the better Spider-Man film adaptation: the Raimi/ Maguire trilogy or the MCU Spidey?
    Raimi... and I don't care what anyone says the "cool" dancing scene from Spider-man 3 was perfect.

    [*]Who's the better Spider-Man writer: Roger Stern or JM DeMatteis?
    I could go either way on that one.

    [*]Going forward, should Venom be a hero or villain?
    Venom could be an anti-hero, but Spider-man should always look at him as a villain.

    [*]Going forward, should Doctor Octopus be a hero or villain?
    Bad guy all the way!

    Gwen vs. MJ or MJ vs. Black Cat is probably a big one.
    Gwen would have had to go through some changes for it to last.

    MJ and Cat have the opposite problems. Mj tends to be critical or worried about him mas Spidey while Cat doesn't care for him as Parker.

    Was Gwen Stacy a good/worthwhile character?
    She was a great character, but a loty of her character has been lost overtime with her only being remembered as a saint.

    Who is Spider-Man's Archenemy? Green Goblin? Doc Ock? Venom?
    Dr. Octopus is like Spider-man's Joker or Magneto while Goblin is more his Ra's or Apocalypse. Goblin has become more the BIG planner and when he's after something it has to be stopped NOW while Dr. Octopus (despite evrything Norman has done) feels more connected on a personal level with a rivalry that's more organic to the characters.

    Does Spider-Man's narrative work with a bunch of other spider-heroes/characters?
    Not as good as it does when he's a solo act.

    Should Spider-Man be in high school or be an adult?
    I think this needs to be a three option question and not a two option. Highschool, college, or adult out on his own. Given those choices, I go with college.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    Spider-Man's costume is better with or without the underarms' webs? You can start WWIII with that question
    Depends on the artist.

    Who was the better artist in Amazing Spider-Man in the 90s, Todd McFarlane or Erik Larsen?
    I thought Larsen had a better more cartoony and exagerated look that benifitted Spider-man more. Also Todd always seemed really bad at drawing faces.

    Should Peter Parker use the black costume or with Venom that costume is for just some stories?
    Once the costume became Venom, Peter should have gave it up completely and never looked back..

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Dr. Octopus is like Spider-man's Joker or Magneto while Goblin is more his Ra's or Apocalypse. Goblin has become more the BIG planner and when he's after something it has to be stopped NOW while Dr. Octopus (despite evrything Norman has done) feels more connected on a personal level with a rivalry that's more organic to the characters.
    That's a weird take and angle. Goblin is the one with the personal fixation and obsession with Spider-Man, the one who tricks, lies, and gaslights him, and so on. That's what Joker usually does. Whereas Dr. Octopus was fully formed and would act independent of Spider-Man. And Dr. Octopus was the Master Planner. I don't think either of them fit the mold of Joker and Ra's (a character created after Goblin and Octopus in publ. history and more or less DC's own attempt to make their Dr. Doom-like villain) but between them Norman Osborn has the more personal obsession.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Tuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    [LIST][*]Ditko or Romita, who has the better take on Spider-Man?
    Romita.

    [*]Should Peter Parker be married to Mary Jane?
    I maintain the problem here is that they were married and the timeline is too gnarled now to resolve this to anyone's satisfaction.

    My answer is both. Iterate.

    [*]What's the better Spider-Man film adaptation: the Raimi/ Maguire trilogy or the MCU Spidey?
    Raimi. It's not even close.

  7. #22
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    Besides, many debates already mentioned.

    Who was the better artist in Amazing Spider-Man in the 90s, Todd McFarlane or Erik Larsen?

    Should Peter Parker use the black costume or with Venom that costume is for just some stories?

    Under Arms Webbing in the Spider-Man costume. (This was already mentioned, but besides, if it should be in the illustrations I wonder how should always be in the illustrations.) To a minimal length as Mark Bagley started illustrating it or as large as Steve Dikto used to illustrate it.Or somewhere in the middle?

    Spider Mobile. Was it great or is a product of its time and remain in the 70´s as Disco music?
    And the fun continues. I love this thread.

    Another toughie, Erik Larsen but just barely, IMO

    He should only use it rarely, if at all

    I don't like the underarm webbing, so no.

    It should remain in the past.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post

    [LIST][*]Ditko or Romita, who has the better take on Spider-Man?
    Hard to say. Both have their merits.

    [*]Should Peter Parker be married to Mary Jane?
    Yes.

    [*]What's the better Spider-Man film adaptation: the Raimi/ Maguire trilogy or the MCU Spidey?
    Neither is better than the other. Both are just different version for their time.

    [*]Who's the better Spider-Man writer: Roger Stern or JM DeMatteis?
    Stern.

    [*]Going forward, should Venom be a hero or villain?
    Hero.

    [*]Going forward, should Doctor Octopus be a hero or villain?
    Villain.

  9. #24
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonEchidna View Post
    I think we've talked about this before, but I definitely think the PS4 game has done the best job of "organically" inserting Miles into Peter's story. Of course there, Peter is a post-grad in his 20s and Miles is a teenager, so they avoid that awkward "they're both kids who happened to be bit around the same time."
    But even that game had to really re-work Miles as a character, especially when you compare him to Into the Spider-Verse.

    In the game he was basically Wally West to Peter's Barry Allen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    Adaptations are different because of limited stories and the ability to make fundamental changes. I think setting up others as supporting characters and then giving them powers can work, but after that, you're stuck with the Shazam family and have a lot more balls to juggle. If they're ready to lean into that, it could be great and we can get a lot of stories that would just be kinda awkward in the books. If they're not, things can get messy. But I also think those characters can work to spruce up the cast without having to get powers. That can have lots of value, too.
    Or Team Flash, or Team Arrow, or Team Supergirl...it's not a new concept .

    But really all I've seen it accomplish is make Spider-Man less capable that he needs so much help against villains he's usually able to beat on his own and other spiders get reduced down to being his sidekicks (especially Miles). And I see less "sprucing up the cast" and more just wholesale trying to replace the characters Peter usually interacts with in favor of spider-people, at least if we're talking the cartoon.

    It just seems like whenever it comes to other spider-characters and Peter they always tend to feel tacked on to his stories.

  10. #25
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    Should Aunt May know Peter is Spider-Man?


    My stance on this is yes. It gives her something to do other than have her health in danger to give Peter another source of anxiety.

  11. #26
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Should Aunt May know Peter is Spider-Man?


    My stance on this is yes. It gives her something to do other than have her health in danger to give Peter another source of anxiety.
    This is a good one.

    I'd add three more... Should Amazing Spider-Man come out more than once a month to replace satellite titles?

    And is Black Cat a ripoff of Catwoman?

    At what point are changes to the original art no longer reprints?
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  12. #27
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I'd add the following topics:
    -- ''Should Spider-Man Ever Leave High School? If not, how can Spider-Man work at different ages or if there's a certain point Spider-Man should stop aging?"
    -- ''What should Spider-Man's role be in the wider-Marvel verse, stay in-his-own-corner, sidekick to the Avengers, or recognized and treated as a major superhero?"
    -- "Should Aunt May live or die? How can Spider-Man work as a complete orphan and adult without family?"
    -- "Now that Spider-Verse is a lasting sub-franchise, does it even make sense anymore for 616 to be considered the default universe?"

    Among your list, I think the "Should Peter Parker be married to mary jane?" is a debate that's been happening and shows no signs of stopping since 1987. So it's redundant to list it because there's basically a huge volume of commentary, comments, responses, false arguments and so on, already put out.


    Ditko's makes more sense as a three-dimensional character, and Peter is more believably flawed, and social dynamics are more realistic.



    Jon Watts isn't fit to shine Raimi's shoes as a film-maker, and the Raimi movie is always going to have the most iconic versions of Peter and his supporting cast -- Uncle Ben, Aunt May, Mary Jane, Harry Osborn, J. Jonah Jameson, and Spider-Man's greatest enemies done right -- Norman Osborn/Green Goblin, and Dr. Octopus.



    Roger Stern's more versatile (indeed he's the most versatile writer to ever write for Marvel) -- he can do comedy, drama, action, tragedy, mystery. JMD writes really in the intense psychologically realistic, dark character-centric pieces. But at the same time, nothing Stern did is as great as Kraven's Last Hunt. I always felt that Stern worked best in the low-key small scale register, stuff like ''The Kid Who Collected Spider-Man" and "The Daydreamers" (which Stern considers, and I agree, to be his greatest story). And of course there's the undeniable fact that the story that Stern expected should be his masterpiece -- The Hobgoblin Saga -- has been fatally undermined and compromised, with a lot of that blame being on Stern's hand.



    As long as Carnage stays evil, yeah, Venom can be an anti-hero. At this point that's the most successful version of him. Both in the movie and in Cates' run.



    Not a single story with Ock as a hero remotely capable of shining the shoes, touching the hem, licking the spittoon of the stories where he's the villain -- The Master Planner Saga, the Sinister Six, The Death of George Stacy, The Owl/Octopus War. There's nobody to replace him unlike Carnage who replaced Venom when he turned anti-hero. Making Ock a hero creates a hole in the rogues gallery, and the founder of the Sinister Six absolutely has to return to the version that Lee and Ditko and others after him intended him to be and remain in.
    The point is to list the debates rather than to solve them.

    Another way to phrase the Ock/ Venom question is whether it's better to have them as protagonists than antagonists. If Superior Spider-Man and Venom are making money and decent comics, is that a worthwhile tradeoff to taking two of the biggest Spider-Man villains off the board.

    A related question with Venom is whether it's better to separate him from Spider-Man.

    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    Besides, many debates already mentioned.

    Who was the better artist in Amazing Spider-Man in the 90s, Todd McFarlane or Erik Larsen?

    Should Peter Parker use the black costume or with Venom that costume is for just some stories?

    Under Arms Webbing in the Spider-Man costume. (This was already mentioned, but besides, if it should be in the illustrations I wonder how should always be in the illustrations.) To a minimal length as Mark Bagley started illustrating it or as large as Steve Dikto used to illustrate it.Or somewhere in the middle?

    Spider Mobile. Was it great or is a product of its time and remain in the 70´s as Disco music?
    Larsen has his fans but McFarlane has the advantage of coming first and working on more important issues so it may not be close enough.

    Todd McFarlane or Mark Bagley might be an interesting argument, just because there are complicating factors (McFarlane had a shorter run; Bagley's had multiple runs on the character.)

    The spider-mobile might get to a larger debate on embracing the silly, and it can be extended by the side-arguments about whether it was fine in the beginning as something that the character didn't take seriously.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  13. #28
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    And is Black Cat a ripoff of Catwoman?
    Only if people don't look past the surface similarities.

  14. #29
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Only if people don't look past the surface similarities.
    A great answer one I agree with.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  15. #30
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Only if people don't look past the surface similarities.
    A lot of people don't.

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