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Thread: The Big Debates

  1. #1

    Default The Big Debates

    On the drive home for work, I was listening to one of the Munk Debates. These have top figures, typically two on each side, debating a major public policy issue for about an hour and a half, with opening statements, a back and forth and closing statements. And I started wondering what Spider-Man topics could be debated in this manner.

    There are probably a few.

    • Ditko or Romita, who has the better take on Spider-Man?
    • Should Peter Parker be married to Mary Jane?
    • What's the better Spider-Man film adaptation: the Raimi/ Maguire trilogy or the MCU Spidey?
    • Who's the better Spider-Man writer: Roger Stern or JM DeMatteis?
    • Going forward, should Venom be a hero or villain?
    • Going forward, should Doctor Octopus be a hero or villain?


    What do you guys think? Are there other big disagreements on this level?

  2. #2
    Incredible Member Russ840's Avatar
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    I can’t see how the first one is a debate. Ditko didn’t have a ‘take’ on Spidey. He pioneered him. Everyone after had their take.

  3. #3
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    So the Webb movies don't even enter into the conversation ?

    Gwen vs. MJ or MJ vs. Black Cat is probably a big one.

    Was Gwen Stacy a good/worthwhile character?

    Who is Spider-Man's Archenemy? Green Goblin? Doc Ock? Venom?

    Does Spider-Man's narrative work with a bunch of other spider-heroes/characters?

    Should Spider-Man be in high school or be an adult?

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Russ840 View Post
    I can’t see how the first one is a debate. Ditko didn’t have a ‘take’ on Spidey. He pioneered him. Everyone after had their take.
    Fair enough. I guess we could switch it to "Who is the better Spider-Man artist: Steve Ditko or John Romita Sr?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    So the Webb movies don't even enter into the conversation ?

    Gwen vs. MJ or MJ vs. Black Cat is probably a big one.

    Was Gwen Stacy a good/worthwhile character?

    Who is Spider-Man's Archenemy? Green Goblin? Doc Ock? Venom?

    Does Spider-Man's narrative work with a bunch of other spider-heroes/characters?

    Should Spider-Man be in high school or be an adult?
    I don't think the Webb films would get much of a showing.

    Good questions.

  5. #5
    Astonishing Member CrimsonEchidna's Avatar
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    What's the better Spider-Man film adaptation: the Raimi/ Maguire trilogy or the MCU Spidey?

    As someone who is super critical of the Raimi films and think they haven't aged well, I still think of the live action films they've offered the most accurate portrayal of Peter Parker and Spider-Man. Amazing dropped the ball by over romanticizing Peter's relationship with his dad, and the MCU Peter feels more like an amalgamation of Ultimate Peter Parker and Miles Morales.
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  6. #6
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonEchidna View Post
    What's the better Spider-Man film adaptation: the Raimi/ Maguire trilogy or the MCU Spidey?

    As someone who is super critical of the Raimi films and think they haven't aged well, I still think of the live action films they've offered the most accurate portrayal of Peter Parker and Spider-Man. Amazing dropped the ball by over romanticizing Peter's relationship with his dad, and the MCU Peter feels more like an amalgamation of Ultimate Peter Parker and Miles Morales.
    I think the argument could be made that Maguire feels a little more like Peter then Holland's does because of his context/situation/supporting cast.

    Plus, he frequently quipped. Was he good at quipping? No. But he quipped .

  7. #7
    Incredible Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    Spider-Man's costume is better with or without the underarms' webs? You can start WWIII with that question
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

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  8. #8
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    Ditko is better than Romita.

    Betty.

    Raimi trilogy is a straighter adaptation, MCU chooses to make new engaging stories by not repeating that, therefore making less traditional adaptations. I don't think either approach is inherently better, even though I like Homecoming more than any one of the Raimi movies in a vacuum. I'll compare trilogies when there are trilogies to compare.

    KLH gives JMD the edge.

    Venom is an anti-hero. Otto is an anti-hero.

    Again, Betty.

    Gwen Stacy is a good character, but she became less interesting and didn't live up to her potential because Ditko left.

    Norman is the archenemy.

    Spider-Man works fine with other Spiders as long as they all have their own lives, their own little worlds and casts, and their own corners of the MU, interacting once in a while.

    Spider-Man finished high school. Adaptations can start where they want.

    And yes, the underarm webbings should always be there. It makes Peter's silhouette more unique, which is even more important now that he has Spider peers. They're also really weird, offputting, and a little gross, which is what Spider-Man as conceived by Ditko is all about. EVERY ARTIST SHOULD DRAW THEM! (I'll still love you no matter what, Humberto!)
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  9. #9
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I don't think the Webb films would get much of a showing.
    For me personally, I would say Andrew Garfield is probably the best voice/portrayal of Spider-Man, beaten only by Josh Keaton from Spectacular and Yuri Lowenthal from PS4, so I would say that would amount to something, even if the overall quality of the movies don't stand up as much as the others.
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen, West Coast Avengers, Ms. Marvel, Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man, Avengers, Sonic The Hedgehog

  10. #10
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Just my opinions -

    Ditko or Romita, who has the better take on Spider-Man?

    - A tough one, Ditko

    Should Peter Parker be married to Mary Jane?

    - No, that ship has sailed. Maybe he should get married again but not to MJ.

    What's the better Spider-Man film adaptation: the Raimi/ Maguire trilogy or the MCU Spidey?

    - Raimi/ Maguire trilogy

    Who's the better Spider-Man writer: Roger Stern or JM DeMatteis?

    - Another tough one, JM DeMatteis

    Going forward, should Venom be a hero or villain?

    - Eddie a villain and Flash a hero (split the Symbiote or clone it I say).

    Going forward, should Doctor Octopus be a hero or villain?

    - Neither, he should be an Anti-Hero
    "I'm sorry, but your story isn't adding up. I think your religion is a lie to keep my mouth shut."

  11. #11
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    Gwen Stacy is a good character, but she became less interesting and didn't live up to her potential because Ditko left.
    So you're a Ditko Gwen fan ?
    Spider-Man works fine with other Spiders as long as they all have their own lives, their own little worlds and casts, and their own corners of the MU, interacting once in a while.
    So you don't think something like the Marvel's Spider-Man cartoon, where they're forced into Peter's supporting cast, works by comparison? And that they shouldn't really be involved in Peter Parker stories?
    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    For me personally, I would say Andrew Garfield is probably the best voice/portrayal of Spider-Man, beaten only by Josh Keaton from Spectacular and Yuri Lowenthal from PS4, so I would say that would amount to something, even if the overall quality of the movies don't stand up as much as the others.
    Just going by live-action portrayals I think Garfield definitely has the edge.

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    What do you guys think? Are there other big disagreements on this level?
    I'd add the following topics:
    -- ''Should Spider-Man Ever Leave High School? If not, how can Spider-Man work at different ages or if there's a certain point Spider-Man should stop aging?"
    -- ''What should Spider-Man's role be in the wider-Marvel verse, stay in-his-own-corner, sidekick to the Avengers, or recognized and treated as a major superhero?"
    -- "Should Aunt May live or die? How can Spider-Man work as a complete orphan and adult without family?"
    -- "Now that Spider-Verse is a lasting sub-franchise, does it even make sense anymore for 616 to be considered the default universe?"

    Among your list, I think the "Should Peter Parker be married to mary jane?" is a debate that's been happening and shows no signs of stopping since 1987. So it's redundant to list it because there's basically a huge volume of commentary, comments, responses, false arguments and so on, already put out.

    [*]Ditko or Romita, who has the better take on Spider-Man?
    Ditko's makes more sense as a three-dimensional character, and Peter is more believably flawed, and social dynamics are more realistic.

    [*]What's the better Spider-Man film adaptation: the Raimi/ Maguire trilogy or the MCU Spidey?
    Jon Watts isn't fit to shine Raimi's shoes as a film-maker, and the Raimi movie is always going to have the most iconic versions of Peter and his supporting cast -- Uncle Ben, Aunt May, Mary Jane, Harry Osborn, J. Jonah Jameson, and Spider-Man's greatest enemies done right -- Norman Osborn/Green Goblin, and Dr. Octopus.

    [*]Who's the better Spider-Man writer: Roger Stern or JM DeMatteis?
    Roger Stern's more versatile (indeed he's the most versatile writer to ever write for Marvel) -- he can do comedy, drama, action, tragedy, mystery. JMD writes really in the intense psychologically realistic, dark character-centric pieces. But at the same time, nothing Stern did is as great as Kraven's Last Hunt. I always felt that Stern worked best in the low-key small scale register, stuff like ''The Kid Who Collected Spider-Man" and "The Daydreamers" (which Stern considers, and I agree, to be his greatest story). And of course there's the undeniable fact that the story that Stern expected should be his masterpiece -- The Hobgoblin Saga -- has been fatally undermined and compromised, with a lot of that blame being on Stern's hand.

    [*]Going forward, should Venom be a hero or villain?
    As long as Carnage stays evil, yeah, Venom can be an anti-hero. At this point that's the most successful version of him. Both in the movie and in Cates' run.

    [*]Going forward, should Doctor Octopus be a hero or villain?
    Not a single story with Ock as a hero remotely capable of shining the shoes, touching the hem, licking the spittoon of the stories where he's the villain -- The Master Planner Saga, the Sinister Six, The Death of George Stacy, The Owl/Octopus War. There's nobody to replace him unlike Carnage who replaced Venom when he turned anti-hero. Making Ock a hero creates a hole in the rogues gallery, and the founder of the Sinister Six absolutely has to return to the version that Lee and Ditko and others after him intended him to be and remain in.
    Last edited by Revolutionary_Jack; 05-23-2019 at 10:10 PM.

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member whiteshark's Avatar
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    Besides, many debates already mentioned.

    Who was the better artist in Amazing Spider-Man in the 90s, Todd McFarlane or Erik Larsen?

    Should Peter Parker use the black costume or with Venom that costume is for just some stories?

    Under Arms Webbing in the Spider-Man costume. (This was already mentioned, but besides, if it should be in the illustrations I wonder how should always be in the illustrations.) To a minimal length as Mark Bagley started illustrating it or as large as Steve Dikto used to illustrate it.Or somewhere in the middle?

    Spider Mobile. Was it great or is a product of its time and remain in the 70s as Disco music?
    Last edited by whiteshark; 05-24-2019 at 04:59 AM.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    Spider Mobile. Was it great or is a product of its time and remain in the 70s as Disco music?
    The Spider-Mobile was intended by Conway as a joke. So it's not really "a product of its time". It was never intended to last. Of course that's a common thing for Conway, since the Clone Saga wasn't intended to last either, and was also not something that was supposed to be taken seriously.

    I actually do think the Spider-Mobile has a lot of potential and ideas. It's one of the few times Peter really invented something and found a way to put his web-fluid to applied engineering. It's a sign of his friendship with Johnny and that sequence where Peter and Johnny work on it, with Peter using that work to avoid thinking about Gwen is a great human moment. So in that sense yeah, it's great. You can do a lot more with it than has been done in the comics.

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member whiteshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The Spider-Mobile was intended by Conway as a joke. So it's not really "a product of its time". It was never intended to last. Of course that's a common thing for Conway, since the Clone Saga wasn't intended to last either, and was also not something that was supposed to be taken seriously.

    I actually do think the Spider-Mobile has a lot of potential and ideas. It's one of the few times Peter really invented something and found a way to put his web-fluid to applied engineering. It's a sign of his friendship with Johnny and that sequence where Peter and Johnny work on it, with Peter using that work to avoid thinking about Gwen is a great human moment. So in that sense yeah, it's great. You can do a lot more with it than has been done in the comics.
    The story of the first story with the Spider-Mobile was great indeed.It shows the friendship of Peter and Johny in the story.But the Spider-Mobile besides two story arcs in the 70s just apeared again in a secondary story of Amazing Spider-Man#600 and a limited series by Dan Slott before.So while i think the design is cool,acording to the stories that had the Spider Mobile shows how relevant it was.

    I did not liked the Clone Saga of the 90s but i have to say i was actually not that surprised that the original Clone Saga had a continuation when i was reading comic books back then.After all the ending of the Original Clone Saga story arc is quite ambiguous.

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