BATMAN/CATWOMAN #1 by TOM KING & CLAY MANN (JANUARY 2020)

[Talon1load]

So you guys are saying hat you have verified proof that King is leaving the Batman title because he’s writing a movie? If not, then that’s your speculation being put out as a rumor which is exactly what I’ve been saying this whole time. DC HAS stated that hey are going back to monthlies so that is a fact. You pairing it up with speculation that King’s “popular” Bat/Cat story wil sell better than the main title and is there to continue to double dip, so to speak, is another rumor. I also don’t think it’s as popular as you believe but there’s really no way to know that right now. I may be wrong. He made their relationship unbearable to me though. Anyway, the entire point of these numerous posts isn’t to prove that I’m right and you’re wrong, it’s to show that we are all just peddling rumors right now. You can justify it however you want and you may even have a very compelling case, however it’s still just a romur at this point in time. Feel free to continue arguing though. I’m laid up from back surgery and literally have nothing else to do. It’s actually a welcom distraction from the pain. Lol.

[Talon1load]

21 issues short. That’s a hefty chunk they are cutting short there. Letting him replace it with a 12 issue maxi series that will probably be under a much tighter editorial staff than the rest of his run has been as well. There is the possibility that they didn’t like it but waited for an excuse to boot him and his slipping sales did it. Or maybe they just saw what he was intending to do and decided to nip it in the bud. We don’t know. Those who do, aren’t talking. So we are left to wonder what’s going on.

[Pohzee]

It is a fact that Tom King is writing a movie.

It is a fact that he is writing at least one other comic series with Mitch Gerads.

It is *likely* that King would not have time to do all of these projects and write Batman monthly.

It is a fact that DC is going monthly with all their books.

It is a fact that going monthly with Batman would lose DC a lot of money.

It is a fact that secondary titles do not sell as well as main titles.

It is *likely* that King's mini would sell better than most secondary titles due to it being the culmination of 3 years of stories from the main title.

[numberthirty]

21 issues short. That’s a hefty chunk they are cutting short there. Letting him replace it with a 12 issue maxi series that will probably be under a much tighter editorial staff than the rest of his run has been as well. There is the possibility that they didn’t like it but waited for an excuse to boot him and his slipping sales did it. Or maybe they just saw what he was intending to do and decided to nip it in the bud. We don’t know. Those who do, aren’t talking. So we are left to wonder what’s going on.

Once you factor in that your "They..." was absolutely in a position to make certain that nothing after issue #85 ever made it to the stands, your "There is a possibility..." goes right out the window.

Meanwhile, everything that we know for a fact says otherwise.

[Talon1load]

It is a fact that Tom King is writing a movie.

It is a fact that he is writing at least one other comic series with Mitch Gerads.

It is *likely* that King would not have time to do all of these projects and write Batman monthly.

It is a fact that DC is going monthly with all their books.

It is a fact that going monthly with Batman would lose DC a lot of money.

It is a fact that secondary titles do not sell as well as main titles.

It is *likely* that King's mini would sell better than most secondary titles due to it being the culmination of 3 years of stories from the main title.

I agree with these. However I would like to point out that the first *likely* you mention doesn’t make much sense if King is still going to write a monthly maxi series. Also, the *fact* that DC would lose a lot of money by having Batman go strictly monthly kind of goes out the window when you realize that it was DC’s decision to go monthly. That would lead reasonable people to believe that they’ve done a cost/benefit analysis and determined that to either not be the case or be within an acceptable range. I also think you second *likely* will sell less than the regular series since, more than likely, it will mostly be bought by King diehards. A lot of people just want him gone and competent writing back on the main title. However, I will concede that that is nothing more than my opinion.

[Talon1load]

Once you factor in that your "They..." was absolutely in a position to make certain that nothing after issue #85 ever made it to the stands, your "There is a possibility..." goes right out the window.

Meanwhile, everything that we know for a fact says otherwise.

That’s a bit of a stretch. Their personal feelings and professional responsibilities may not always line up. Your secondary title could very well be nothing more than a bone thrown out to King fans for putting up with all the nonsense for the past 3 years. Again, we’ll have to wait and see. As for what the facts state, until clearly laid out and explained, they can be interpreted in multiple ways as we’ve seen on this page.

[Inversed]

I agree with these. However I would like to point out that the first *likely* you mention doesn’t make much sense if King is still going to write a monthly maxi series. Also, the *fact* that DC would lose a lot of money by having Batman go strictly monthly kind of goes out the window when you realize that it was DC’s decision to go monthly. That would lead reasonable people to believe that they’ve done a cost/benefit analysis and determined that to either not be the case or be within an acceptable range. I also think you second *likely* will sell less than the regular series since, more than likely, it will mostly be bought by King diehards. A lot of people just want him gone and competent writing back on the main title. However, I will concede that that is nothing more than my opinion.

So again, you even admit you're the one using bias for your interpretation, even though you said its everyone else having a bias that makes theirs "clearly less true".

Whether it will sell better than the main book is up in the air, but I would 100% guarantee it will sell better than pretty much every other Batman ongoing, because contrary to your own feelings, King's name IS a draw, same with just the idea of a Batman & Catwoman book in general, so that gives it the potential to match up to main book's sales, and essentially having double shipped worth of sales through two monthly series. Plus if something goes wrong or they can't finish on time, the side book is allowed to skip a month, while something like Batman has to be out every month.

There's also the possibility that due to this series being most likely fairly low stakes and more of a "chill" book, both parties decided to give it its own spot so it can have some breathing room, plus with the move to monthly King wouldn't be getting his 100 issues anyway, so might as well give it the relaunched boost (though all of that is all just pure speculation with no basis on my part)

[lilyrose]

How do you guys think this new book will do in general? Will people be interested in a Batman/Catwoman team up?

[Talon1load]

So again, you even admit you're the one using bias for your interpretation, even though you said its everyone else having a bias that makes theirs "clearly less true".

Whether it will sell better than the main book is up in the air, but I would 100% guarantee it will sell better than pretty much every other Batman ongoing, because contrary to your own feelings, King's name IS a draw, same with just the idea of a Batman & Catwoman book in general, so that gives it the potential to match up to main book's sales, and essentially having double shipped worth of sales through two monthly series. Plus if something goes wrong or they can't finish on time, the side book is allowed to skip a month, while something like Batman has to be out every month.

There's also the possibility that due to this series being most likely fairly low stakes and more of a "chill" book, both parties decided to give it its own spot so it can have some breathing room, plus with the move to monthly King wouldn't be getting his 100 issues anyway, so might as well give it the relaunched boost (though all of that is all just pure speculation with no basis on my part)

You need to reread what I’ve written. I always said I have a bias just like you. I never said your view was clearly less true, I said that it is a rumor until confirmed. Let’s see how much of a draw King is after the whole HiC debacle. They are ok with the book skipping a month because they don’t care about it. And you admit that it will be low stakes. That’s because DC has decided against King’s generational change.

Again, reread what I’ve previously written. I have made my bias abundantly clear throughout, you seem to be unwilling to admit your own and that’s what I’ve been pointing out to you.

[Talon1load]

How do you guys think this new book will do in general? Will people be interested in a Batman/Catwoman team up?

I think King fans will definitely be interested but I don’t believe, personally, that it will be the draw that others seem to think it will.

[Bruce Wayne]

It's a Batman book. It'll probably do Detective Comic numbers.

[numberthirty]

You need to reread what I’ve written. I always said I have a bias just like you. I never said your view was clearly less true, I said that it is a rumor until confirmed. Let’s see how much of a draw King is after the whole HiC debacle. They are ok with the book skipping a month because they don’t care about it. And you admit that it will be low stakes. That’s because DC has decided against King’s generational change.

Again, reread what I’ve previously written. I have made my bias abundantly clear throughout, you seem to be unwilling to admit your own and that’s what I’ve been pointing out to you.

That's because his/her feelings are a non-issue in what he/she has pointed out.

If you are talking about the actual reality of what has happened, how you personally felt about it has absolutely zero chance of creating the reality Inversed has laid out.

It will not create the future reality that King's "Batman" run will go on essentially unchanged with one of DC's top artists on the title. How Inversed feels about the run did not create that reality.

Meanwhile, another day has gone by and there hasn't been so much as a single bit of information coming out that points to anything like DC disliking King's "Batman" run while the reality we have points to it obviously not being the case.

[Talon1load]

That's because his/her feelings are a non-issue in what he/she has pointed out.

If you are talking about the actual reality of what has happened, how you personally felt about it has absolutely zero chance of creating the reality Inversed has laid out.

It will not create the future reality that King's "Batman" run will go on essentially unchanged with one of DC's top artists on the title. How Inversed feels about the run did not create that reality.

Meanwhile, another day has gone by and there hasn't been so much as a single bit of information coming out that points to anything like DC disliking King's "Batman" run while the reality we have points to it obviously not being the case.

What exactly are you talking about? Inverted pointed out my bias, I pointed out their bias. That was the point. None of our opinions will have any affect on anything to do with Batman. And while no information has come out to support my claim, none has come out to support yours either. Lack of information is not confirmation. At his point I feel like you’re arguing just for shits and giggles. I’m cool with that but at least try to make some sense in your responses.

[Inversed]

You need to reread what I’ve written. I always said I have a bias just like you. I never said your view was clearly less true, I said that it is a rumor until confirmed. Let’s see how much of a draw King is after the whole HiC debacle. They are ok with the book skipping a month because they don’t care about it. And you admit that it will be low stakes. That’s because DC has decided against King’s generational change.

Again, reread what I’ve previously written. I have made my bias abundantly clear throughout, you seem to be unwilling to admit your own and that’s what I’ve been pointing out to you.

That's like saying Bendis' draw would falter because of CWII, when that clearly didn't turn out to be the case. He's still got Mister Miracle (which also would skip months and look how that turned out), he's got another new blank check project in the works, and he's adored by majority of fans and nearly the whole industry, he's gonna be fine.

And there's nothing inherently wrong with "low stakes". Hell, I remember someone else earlier in this thread or somewhere else criticize the book by saying it failed to deliver on more of the most popular stories, like Rooftops and Superfriends (which are literally just the characters hanging out), so having a whole book of just that may end up being a good thing overall.

That's because his/her feelings are a non-issue in what he/she has pointed out.

If you are talking about the actual reality of what has happened, how you personally felt about it has absolutely zero chance of creating the reality Inversed has laid out.

It will not create the future reality that King's "Batman" run will go on essentially unchanged with one of DC's top artists on the title. How Inversed feels about the run did not create that reality.

Meanwhile, another day has gone by and there hasn't been so much as a single bit of information coming out that points to anything like DC disliking King's "Batman" run while the reality we have points to it obviously not being the case.

Yeah, this is all about looking at things from an actual logical perspective.

King IS one of the most popular and sought after comic writers working today. That is a fact, just because you don't like his stuff doesn't mean its not true, ditto to someone like Bendis. Beyond how you feel about the work itself, it makes no sense for DC to want to ruin their creative partnership by cutting off his run before the end, with his ending thrown to the side to "please him". You risk losing a huge commodity, when someone like Marvel would be super happy to snag him up and give him more creative freedom.

That is why him being given another job, one that would take priority over the comics, and them agreeing on the move together makes all the more sense.

How do you guys think this new book will do in general? Will people be interested in a Batman/Catwoman team up?

I think beyond even just the rest of the book itself, I think issue 50's reception and the lead-up to it showed how many Bat/Cat fans there are, so no matter what integration it is in, there's a draw that people will be curious or excited about. Feel to me like it will easily do somewhere between Batman and Detective Comics sales wise, hell I think it even has the potential to do better than the main book, since it has all the right trappings (big name creative team, maxi-series prestige, single digit numbers versus late 80s-90s, etc.) but of course we'll have no idea until it actually happens.

[Talon1load]

That's like saying Bendis' draw would falter because of CWII, when that clearly didn't turn out to be the case. He's still got Mister Miracle (which also would skip months and look how that turned out), he's got another new blank check project in the works, and he's adored by majority of fans and nearly the whole industry, he's gonna be fine.

And there's nothing inherently wrong with "low stakes". Hell, I remember someone else earlier in this thread or somewhere else criticize the book by saying it failed to deliver on more of the most popular stories, like Rooftops and Superfriends (which are literally just the characters hanging out), so having a whole book of just that may end up being a good thing overall.



Yeah, this is all about looking at things from an actual logical perspective.

King IS one of the most popular and sought after comic writers working today. That is a fact, just because you don't like his stuff doesn't mean its not true, ditto to someone like Bendis. Beyond how you feel about the work itself, it makes no sense for DC to want to ruin their creative partnership by cutting off his run before the end, with his ending thrown to the side to "please him". You risk losing a huge commodity, when someone like Marvel would be super happy to snag him up and give him more creative freedom.

That is why him being given another job, one that would take priority over the comics, and them agreeing on the move together makes all the more sense.



I think beyond even just the rest of the book itself, I think issue 50's reception and the lead-up to it showed how many Bat/Cat fans there are, so no matter what integration it is in, there's a draw that people will be curious or excited about. Feel to me like it will easily do somewhere between Batman and Detective Comics sales wise, hell I think it even has the potential to do better than the main book, since it has all the right trappings (big name creative team, maxi-series prestige, single digit numbers versus late 80s-90s, etc.) but of course we'll have no idea until it actually happens.

I don’t mind Bendis too much. I think he still has some work to do to get voices right in the Superman books but do you really think he didn’t lose some appeal after CWII? Yeah, he was a big name for over a decade but he’s not pulling down any stellar sales numbers anymore. Mister Miracle brought in pretty low numbers as well. Sure it won awards but they are awards from others in the industry, not fans. However, sure I’ll concede that’s seen as a big deal. HiC was supposed to be a huge DC event book though and has had a HUGE blowback. If you don’t think it will affect King then you are being willfully naive. Just as an aside, how are you determining how popular he is? Are you just basing it off of awards? Probably not sales numbers, since he hasn’t done anything amazing there. I’m just curious.