BATMAN/CATWOMAN #1 by TOM KING & CLAY MANN (JANUARY 2020)

[Korath]

Think about if there might be more than one way of looking at the math you just laid out.

True, but his explanation remains largely bullshit.

What was the point of moving him to a limited series if he'll write just a book a month (which is how I understand his statement) ?

The answer is none since Batman could have simply become monthly with King at the helm. But higher ups did the math, felt worried about his plans and shipped him to a limited series, freeing their main non-event seller book or someone who won't consistently destroy this corner of the DCU.

I know that you don't want to believe that it's what's happening, because it doesn't fit your narrative, but that's how i see things, and no amount of "explanations" by King will change that.

[RJT]

Tbh, Tom King's reasoning makes no sense, so to help accommodate him DC cut his Batman run short b/c it's twice monthly and gave him the Bat/Cat book which is also twice monthly?

I thought all the DC books were going to be monthly now.

Unless he's saying by the time the Bat/Cat book comes out he will still be on the Batman book which would then have become just a monthly book.

But if that's the case and he's still on Batman and both Batman and the BatCat book come out once a month, isn't that equal to doing a twice monthly book which defeats the purpose of DC accommodating him.

And if he is off the Batman book by the time the BatCat book comes out couldn't he have stayed on Batman since all of DC books are going monthly anyway.

Someone make it make sense b/c right now the explanation sounds like window dressings for being essentially fired off a book with a pretence of not being fired cause of contracts.

I’ll try: Tom King was not going to be able to keep doing Batman twice a month and write the New Gods screenplay. DC would probably likes selling two high selling issues of Batman a month. Creating a second book for King spinning off from whatever big change he had planned for the end of the Bane storyline and putting someone else on the main title is a better guarantee of retaining those high sales than keeping King on the main book and creating a different Bat title (“Friendly Neighborhood Batman”) with a new creative team on it.
I think if DC was really unhappy with King on Batman they would have just ended his run at 85 and cited him taking on the “New Gods” screenplay to help him save face.
At this point, with the available evidence, it is quite a stretch to still cling to the “DC hates King’s Batman” theory.

[numberthirty]

True, but his explanation remains largely bullshit.

What was the point of moving him to a limited series if he'll write just a book a month (which is how I understand his statement) ?

The answer is none since Batman could have simply become monthly with King at the helm. But higher ups did the math, felt worried about his plans and shipped him to a limited series, freeing their main non-event seller book or someone who won't consistently destroy this corner of the DCU.

I know that you don't want to believe that it's what's happening, because it doesn't fit your narrative, but that's how i see things, and no amount of "explanations" by King will change that.

Luckily, King's explanation isn't really central to working out what is actually going on.

We just have to take a look at how far fetched the scenario that is in blue actually is once you take a minute to think things through.

For that scenario to be even remotely realistic, we would have to accept that DC Comics is so worried about King's plans(or hates King's run/or whatever...) that they managed to forget that they own the IP and absolutely have the ability to stop King's run from making it to the stands at any point they decided to.

Which makes zero sense. We are talking about the same company that put The Immortal Men down, with zero mercy, in less than ten issues. They can(and will) get rid of anything they actually don't like.

Meanwhile, King's run will essentially go exactly as planned and none of these "Sources" have come forward to attempt to back up that any of the outlandish stuff that is going around is anything except "Strictly Rumor".

[RJT]

True, but his explanation remains largely bullshit.

What was the point of moving him to a limited series if he'll write just a book a month (which is how I understand his statement) ?

The answer is none since Batman could have simply become monthly with King at the helm. But higher ups did the math, felt worried about his plans and shipped him to a limited series, freeing their main non-event seller book or someone who won't consistently destroy this corner of the DCU.

I know that you don't want to believe that it's what's happening, because it doesn't fit your narrative, but that's how i see things, and no amount of "explanations" by King will change that.

Or maybe, wait for it, DC wants to sell two Batman comics a month instead of just one.

[Korath]

Or maybe, wait for it, DC wants to sell two Batman comics a month instead of just one.

At which point I raise the interest of moving King from the main one to a limited series. There is other great writers at DC who could sell a limited series, probably higher than King.

I doubt I'll be the only one so burned by his run and his depiction of Bat/Cat (to the point that I can't stand the pairing anymore) who won't bother to pick up the mini.

Moving him means that those who buy the Batman title because it's Batman won't follow King if they aren't pleased, weakening the mini's sales, even if I don't doubt they'll be good.

But Last Knight on Earth or Batman Who Laughs will probably end outselling it considerably, because King's last works range from great (Mister Miracle), passable (most of his Batman run), mediocre (the Knightmares) to utter disaster (HiC). His sales will be affected because his brand isn't what it was when he took the helm of Batman.

To maximize the sells, giving a mini to Orlando, Priest, perhaps even Bendis and let him finish his run (8 more issues and months wouldn't be that much of a difference, really, compared to his current output as envisioned) would make more sense. Especially if editorial had ordered the new team to follow up on King's development in the main book.

Instead, King will get to finish his run on a prestige format while someone else will be writing Batman stories and probably paying only lip service to whatever is happening in Bat/Cat, because nobody likes to have to be constraigned by what's happening in another book.

[RJT]

At which point I raise the interest of moving King from the main one to a limited series. There is other great writers at DC who could sell a limited series, probably higher than King.

I doubt I'll be the only one so burned by his run and his depiction of Bat/Cat (to the point that I can't stand the pairing anymore) who won't bother to pick up the mini.

Moving him means that those who buy the Batman title because it's Batman won't follow King if they aren't pleased, weakening the mini's sales, even if I don't doubt they'll be good.

But Last Knight on Earth or Batman Who Laughs will probably end outselling it considerably, because King's last works range from great (Mister Miracle), passable (most of his Batman run), mediocre (the Knightmares) to utter disaster (HiC). His sales will be affected because his brand isn't what it was when he took the helm of Batman.

To maximize the sells, giving a mini to Orlando, Priest, perhaps even Bendis and let him finish his run (8 more issues and months wouldn't be that much of a difference, really, compared to his current output as envisioned) would make more sense. Especially if editorial had ordered the new team to follow up on King's development in the main book.

Instead, King will get to finish his run on a prestige format while someone else will be writing Batman stories and probably paying only lip service to whatever is happening in Bat/Cat, because nobody likes to have to be constraigned by what's happening in another book.

I mean, your personal opinions aside, King has kept Batman DC’s top-selling ongoing book two times a month for more than three years. I know that conventional wisdom is that “Batman” is a top-seller regardless of who is writing him, but that hasn’t always been the case. It really depends on who is working on the book; I don’t remember Judd Winick/Mark Bagley’s run on the main book outselling Batman and Robin by Morrison and Quitely. Fans are going to buy the title they think is the main one; my guess is that that will be Batman/Catwoman since DC is signaling that the story readers have been following for 85 issues will be continuing there. I guess we’ll find out in 2020.

[Pohzee]

It is humongously ridiculous to posit that Seeley, Orlando, or Priest would sell the same as King based on name, let alone better. Especially when King’s mini is the culmination of the past 3 years on the title.

[RJT]

It is humongously ridiculous to posit that Seeley, Orlando, or Priest would sell the same as King based on name, let alone better. Especially when King’s mini is the culmination of the past 3 years on the title.

I mean, they’ve published a bunch of Batman miniseries since 2016; they did a whole series with Kelley Jones last year. I don’t remember that outselling King’s Batman or coming even close.
I feel like there is this weird loophole that is created with the direct market system that since it is only sales to retailers, not sell-through-that gets reported, this allows people to disregard sales rankings that don’t conform to their tastes. King’s Batman has been the top ongoing book in the industry for most of its run. Heroes in Crisis’s 8th issue was a top ten book and outsold the second issue of War of the Realms. DC has printed up several different versions of the Mister Miracle hardcover; King sells. But people who don’t like his work like to imagine that the DM is buying tons of these comics and then not selling them to customers. Comic shops would go out of business if they were overordering a book by any substantial amount for three years. There are a large number of people who buy King’s Batman every other week; sales don’t equate quality, so people can feel free to hate what he’s doing, but DC is doing this the way they are doing this because they think it’s going to make them more money. All the other conspiracy theories fall apart under that calculus.

[Inversed]

I’ll try: Tom King was not going to be able to keep doing Batman twice a month and write the New Gods screenplay. DC would probably likes selling two high selling issues of Batman a month. Creating a second book for King spinning off from whatever big change he had planned for the end of the Bane storyline and putting someone else on the main title is a better guarantee of retaining those high sales than keeping King on the main book and creating a different Bat title (“Friendly Neighborhood Batman”) with a new creative team on it.
I think if DC was really unhappy with King on Batman they would have just ended his run at 85 and cited him taking on the “New Gods” screenplay to help him save face.
At this point, with the available evidence, it is quite a stretch to still cling to the “DC hates King’s Batman” theory.

Yep, everything you said is right on the money.

Basically what this change has done is it took King's original final 15 issues that were to be released over the span of 8 months, and instead made it 12 to be released over 12 months. Which when you consider many peoples complaints about his run that arcs have been dragged out too long, they should like that its been trimmed down somewhat. And like you mentioned, by putting King on that second book, it will allow them to achieve the sales of a twice monthly Batman without actually having the book double ship. And no matter what your personal opinion is, King IS a name that drives attention. Mister Miracle's success on his and Gerads name alone kind of shows it isn't just an "only Batman" fluke.

[BatmanJones]

I don't get this argument.

King's still writing the end of his Batman run (albeit in a few less issues), it's been confirmed that he's making the big change he teased, and it's been confirmed to be "100% in-continuity" by Gerads and King which is good enough for me.

As a King-Batman super-fan I sincerely couldn't care less what Harras/Didio think or thought. Since when did any DC fan put stock in their opinions? If one of those guys is unhappy with a book that makes me more likely to read it, not less.

[BatmanJones]

Since this debate is going on here though I'll say that as much as I appreciate Jack Kirby I had a really hard time caring about any New Gods characters before King/Gerads' Mister Miracle.

The news that King's co-writing the movie with Ava DuVernay (both of whom I LOVE) makes this the DC movie I'm looking forward to the most.

The news that he's writing a new TV series is terrific too.

[HsssH]

As someone who didn't like lots of King's Batman, hated some things and loved some other things I feel like can bring my own totally unique perspective to this discussion.

I loved King's ideas about Batman and Catwoman. So I'm really looking forward to this mini because as I understand it is going to focus on, in my opinion, best parts of his run. If it is somehow completely self contained so that I don't have to revisit other parts of his run then it is going to be a smash hit, at least for me.

Anyway, I think that it is possible that higher ups at DC, overall, didn't like his Batman run, but just like me loved Bat/Cat angle. And well they want main Batman book to come out on time and be more traditional, meat and potatoes if you will, thing. But at the same time they totally want King to finish up his Bat/Cat story.

Also, I find it ridiculous that people are arguing that all this will either not be in continuity or will be ignored. Like, when Morrison was writing his Batman we had no idea how much of it is going to stick and how much isn't going to. Same for Snyder.