BATMAN/CATWOMAN #1 by TOM KING & CLAY MANN (JANUARY 2020)

[numberthirty]

What exactly are you talking about? Inverted pointed out my bias, I pointed out their bias. That was the point. None of our opinions will have any affect on anything to do with Batman. And while no information has come out to support my claim, none has come out to support yours either. Lack of information is not confirmation. At his point I feel like you’re arguing just for shits and giggles. I’m cool with that but at least try to make some sense in your responses.

Luckily, no supposed "Lack Of Information..." exists. We have plenty of information and actual facts.

It is a fact that Tom King is writing a movie.

It is a fact that he is writing at least one other comic series with Mitch Gerads.

It is *likely* that King would not have time to do all of these projects and write Batman monthly.

It is a fact that DC is going monthly with all their books.

It is a fact that going monthly with Batman would lose DC a lot of money.

It is a fact that secondary titles do not sell as well as main titles.

It is *likely* that King's mini would sell better than most secondary titles due to it being the culmination of 3 years of stories from the main title.

That is the actual reality. If someone sets out to claim that nothing has come out to support the "Yours..." point of view or claim a lack of information exists, that does exactly nothing to change the reality in blue.

It only ignores said reality in an attempt to put the utterly baseless rumor that DC dislikes King's "Batman" run on equal footing with the reality that every fact that we have points away from that.

Which is something that there is no way that anyone who has taken a look at the actual facts will do anything but shake their head at.

[Arctic Cyclist]

So you guys are saying hat you have verified proof that King is leaving the Batman title because he’s writing a movie? If not, then that’s your speculation being put out as a rumor which is exactly what I’ve been saying this whole time. DC HAS stated that hey are going back to monthlies so that is a fact. You pairing it up with speculation that King’s “popular” Bat/Cat story wil sell better than the main title and is there to continue to double dip, so to speak, is another rumor. I also don’t think it’s as popular as you believe but there’s really no way to know that right now. I may be wrong. He made their relationship unbearable to me though. Anyway, the entire point of these numerous posts isn’t to prove that I’m right and you’re wrong, it’s to show that we are all just peddling rumors right now. You can justify it however you want and you may even have a very compelling case, however it’s still just a romur at this point in time. Feel free to continue arguing though. I’m laid up from back surgery and literally have nothing else to do. It’s actually a welcom distraction from the pain. Lol.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/ava-duvernay...her-1835106578

io9 isn't as reliable and awesome as it was under Annalee and Charlie Jane, but it's still significantly more respectable and trustworthy than CBR, Bleeding Cool, or basically an comic centric website. I'm not excited about the movie. A Wrinkle in Time was alright, and the race bending Meg was inspired, but overall it was a disappointing movie. On the plus side, the New Gods (and for that matter, Batman) aren't as beloved of a property as A Wrinkle in Time.

As for Tom King thinking that Batman/Catwoman will do as well as Batman and Robin and become as beloved: pfft. He, like everyone sans Tomasi, doesn't seem to realize a) BruTalia was the otp of the Timmverse generation and they came primed and ready for Damian, b) both series had fan bases comprised of new readers or people who'd stopped reading and returned for a character that acted like an actual 10 year old (kids are jerks, it's why seeing Damian be a little ass was refreshing and fun because it was easy to self insert again), and c) as I've said before, if you look at the pre wedding sales for the courtship books, more people were willing to by Jim!Bats stories than BatCat. Maybe new people will buy it; we already know the "critics" will think it's amazing. But it's nothing new, Bruce and Selina married has been done before, Bruce and Selina has been done to death and will never achieve the same level of Lois and Clark simply because there has been so many other Bat ships that are significantly more interesting.

Like the dude Bruce was with in O Fortunate Son, which Snyder referenced in All Star Batman. So that's canon. And really deserves to be explored, less in the Bruce is bisexual way and more in he has a history of ending up in relationships that are self destructive.

[Talon1load]

Ok, are you just trying to be difficult? I’ve acknowledged those facts but they still do nothing to prove your claims. You’ve taken those facts and added in your own spin on them. Fact, Tom King is being removed from Batman. Can you dispute that? Nope. Do you know why? Nope. You can and have speculated as to the reasons but YOU have zero proof to back up your claims. Just. Like. Me. We are all speculating. You can continue to claim that your speculation is fact but that doesn’t make it so. You can argue until you’re blue in the face, that doesn’t change the fact that you have zero hard evidence to prove your claim. You have facts that can SUPPORT your claim but they do not, in and of themselves, prove it. How are you not understanding this concept?

[Talon1load]

https://io9.gizmodo.com/ava-duvernay...her-1835106578

io9 isn't as reliable and awesome as it was under Annalee and Charlie Jane, but it's still significantly more respectable and trustworthy than CBR, Bleeding Cool, or basically an comic centric website. I'm not excited about the movie. A Wrinkle in Time was alright, and the race bending Meg was inspired, but overall it was a disappointing movie. On the plus side, the New Gods (and for that matter, Batman) aren't as beloved of a property as A Wrinkle in Time.

As for Tom King thinking that Batman/Catwoman will do as well as Batman and Robin and become as beloved: pfft. He, like everyone sans Tomasi, doesn't seem to realize a) BruTalia was the otp of the Timmverse generation and they came primed and ready for Damian, b) both series had fan bases comprised of new readers or people who'd stopped reading and returned for a character that acted like an actual 10 year old (kids are jerks, it's why seeing Damian be a little ass was refreshing and fun because it was easy to self insert again), and c) as I've said before, if you look at the pre wedding sales for the courtship books, more people were willing to by Jim!Bats stories than BatCat. Maybe new people will buy it; we already know the "critics" will think it's amazing. But it's nothing new, Bruce and Selina married has been done before, Bruce and Selina has been done to death and will never achieve the same level of Lois and Clark simply because there has been so many other Bat ships that are significantly more interesting.

Like the dude Bruce was with in O Fortunate Son, which Snyder referenced in All Star Batman. So that's canon. And really deserves to be explored, less in the Bruce is bisexual way and more in he has a history of ending up in relationships that are self destructive.

I already knew he was going to co-write a movie. My point to those guys was, can they prove that had anything to do with him being removed from Batman like they were inferring.

[Inversed]

I don’t mind Bendis too much. I think he still has some work to do to get voices right in the Superman books but do you really think he didn’t lose some appeal after CWII? Yeah, he was a big name for over a decade but he’s not pulling down any stellar sales numbers anymore. Mister Miracle brought in pretty low numbers as well. Sure it won awards but they are awards from others in the industry, not fans. However, sure I’ll concede that’s seen as a big deal. HiC was supposed to be a huge DC event book though and has had a HUGE blowback. If you don’t think it will affect King then you are being willfully naive. Just as an aside, how are you determining how popular he is? Are you just basing it off of awards? Probably not sales numbers, since he hasn’t done anything amazing there. I’m just curious.

Considering everything DC did to sway Bendis to there side (AFTER CWII), proves that that doesn't matter. Direct sales may not be ""the best"" (whatever that definition may be), but when he's still producing what many people consider to be quality content, then a recognizable and popularl name is something that's still valuable.

Mister Miracle still sold very well considering the property and what the book actually was, that was sold pretty much entirely on King and Gerads name. And you forget that the trades have been selling like gangbusters. They released like three different versions of it within the span of a couple months, that should tell you how well it is doing for them (it's almost like the direct market isn't the be all end all for success )

And I'm basing his popularity off critical acclaim and fan response. HiC is his only true dud, and even then its got some fans. Despite what you insist, if you actually look around the internet, his Batman tends to swing more positively than negatively, and everything else (Vision, Sheriff Of Babylon, Mister Miracle, etc.) have received near universal praise. And then you can just look at his presence on social media, and see the amount of people that love him as a person, and just how many industry people (writers, artists, etc.) also love him too.

I already knew he was going to co-write a movie. My point to those guys was, can they prove that had anything to do with him being removed from Batman like they were inferring.

It's called common sense. He gets hired to write the movie at the same time as his removal, we all know this isn't a coincidence at all. So that's where the speculation comes in, and using actual logic, it's not hard to deduce the possibility that is directly what resulted in the book change. There's actual evidence to back up this speculation, whereas yours is literally just believing unconfirmed gossip.

[numberthirty]

Ok, are you just trying to be difficult? I’ve acknowledged those facts but they still do nothing to prove your claims. You’ve taken those facts and added in your own spin on them. Fact, Tom King is being removed from Batman. Can you dispute that? Nope. Do you know why? Nope. You can and have speculated as to the reasons but YOU have zero proof to back up your claims. Just. Like. Me. We are all speculating. You can continue to claim that your speculation is fact but that doesn’t make it so. You can argue until you’re blue in the face, that doesn’t change the fact that you have zero hard evidence to prove your claim. You have facts that can SUPPORT your claim but they do not, in and of themselves, prove it. How are you not understanding this concept?

Being removed while essentially finishing the run as planned.

Which is the exact opposite of what would happen in any reality where DC actually disliked the run. The company owns the IP.

Meanwhile, every piece of actual fact and information that we have is building a mountain of proof and evidence as to what is actually happening. While someone is free to ignore those facts, the reality that they are facts will remain unchanged.

[numberthirty]

I already knew he was going to co-write a movie. My point to those guys was, can they prove that had anything to do with him being removed from Batman like they were inferring.

You are essentially looking at snow covered ground, and trying to create a scenario where someone must have hauled out a snow machine.

Meanwhile, the obvious reality is that it snowed.

[Talon1load]

Considering everything DC did to sway Bendis to there side (AFTER CWII), proves that that doesn't matter. Direct sales may not be ""the best"" (whatever that definition may be), but when he's still producing what many people consider to be quality content, then a recognizable and popularl name is something that's still valuable.

Mister Miracle still sold very well considering the property and what the book actually was, that was sold pretty much entirely on King and Gerads name. And you forget that the trades have been selling like gangbusters. They released like three different versions of it within the span of a couple months, that should tell you how well it is doing for them (it's almost like the direct market isn't the be all end all for success )

And I'm basing his popularity off critical acclaim and fan response. HiC is his only true dud, and even then its got some fans. Despite what you insist, if you actually look around the internet, his Batman tends to swing more positively than negatively, and everything else (Vision, Sheriff Of Babylon, Mister Miracle, etc.) have received near universal praise. And then you can just look at his presence on social media, and see the amount of people that love him as a person, and just how many industry people (writers, artists, etc.) also love him too.



It's called common sense. He gets hired to write the movie at the same time as his removal, we all know this isn't a coincidence at all. So that's where the speculation comes in, and using actual logic, it's not hard to deduce the possibility that is directly what resulted in the book change. There's actual evidence to back up this speculation, whereas yours is literally just believing unconfirmed gossip.

Bendis is a recognizable name. That’s true. DC did do a lot to sway him over from Marvel but that doesn’t mean it was the best idea. I think the jury is still out on how good an idea it was. We’ll see.
I have no idea what the trade sales are on Mr Miracle.
Looking at reviews on comicbookroundup his Batman does well with critics but much less so with fans. No idea how many people register to post reviews though. Near universal praise seems a bit of a stretch. Sheriff wasn’t bad. I read the first trade of that but wasn’t interested enough to read the rest. As for his presence on social media, please. The number of sycophants on his Twitter is more indicative of the sad state of the world than anything else. People fawning over a celebrity just hoping he’ll respond to them is actually pretty disgusting and sad.
I feel like the sequence of events is important to keep in mind. DC didn’t announce that King was working a movie and then would need to come off of Batman early. No, it came out that he was being removed from the book and then days later it came out that he was helping write a movie. DC could have immediately come out and said that he was coming off for other reasons but they didn’t. They knew how it looked and allowed it to come off that way for a reason. As we’ve seen, you’re going to believe whatever you want and so will I. In the end, you continue to make claims without the evidence to confirm them. You can try to spin it otherwise to make yourself feel better but it just doesn’t make it anymore true.

[Talon1load]

Being removed while essentially finishing the run as planned.

Which is the exact opposite of what would happen in any reality where DC actually disliked the run. The company owns the IP.

Meanwhile, every piece of actual fact and information that we have is building a mountain of proof and evidence as to what is actually happening. While someone is free to ignore those facts, the reality that they are facts will remain unchanged.

Being removed 21 issues early isn’t finishing the run as planned. He will still be 9 issues shorter than his plan which for King is going too remove a lot of filler since that’s all he really writes.
I was unaware that you worked for DC and were therefore privy to the inner workings of their corporation. If you’re not, then it’s hard for you to say, with any amount of credibility, what they would and wouldn’t do.
You also don’t seem to understand how facts work or what mountains of proof are. You seem to enjoy ignoring facts and how they connect to make a full truthful statement. Politicians manipulate facts all the time to still tell lies and pass them off as facts. That’s basically what you’re doing here. If you’re cool with that, then you do you. All I’m saying, is we should all be able to acknowledge that we only have a hand full of facts without the complete picture to determine what is actually going on. Instead, you guys are pushing some sort of mental superiority while failing to utilize basic intuitive skills. See? I can be condescending too.

[numberthirty]

Being removed 21 issues early isn’t finishing the run as planned. He will still be 9 issues shorter than his plan which for King is going too remove a lot of filler since that’s all he really writes.
I was unaware that you worked for DC and were therefore privy to the inner workings of their corporation. If you’re not, then it’s hard for you to say, with any amount of credibility, what they would and wouldn’t do.
You also don’t seem to understand how facts work or what mountains of proof are. You seem to enjoy ignoring facts and how they connect to make a full truthful statement. Politicians manipulate facts all the time to still tell lies and pass them off as facts. That’s basically what you’re doing here. If you’re cool with that, then you do you. All I’m saying, is we should all be able to acknowledge that we only have a hand full of facts without the complete picture to determine what is actually going on. Instead, you guys are pushing some sort of mental superiority while failing to utilize basic intuitive skills. See? I can be condescending too.

Again, just plain wrong.

It is easy to judge with plenty of credibility because some of us are judging based on what they are actually doing. It is pretty easy to say what some would and would not to once they are actually doing it.

You just look at what they are doing.

[Arctic Cyclist]

I already knew he was going to co-write a movie. My point to those guys was, can they prove that had anything to do with him being removed from Batman like they were inferring.

Well, as the article points out, trying to cowrite a movie is time consuming. Plus there are King's other projects that they've listed and the little concern that no one has brought up of the man does have small children. Stepping off Batman early to focus on his personal projects and life makes sense.

Although I suspect his Prima Donna behavior and politicking may also have a great deal to do with it. That and fan burn out is a real thing, and people have been burned out on his book for a while; particularly anyone who reads outside of comics who can, and do, call every single plot twist without even trying or rereading hence the steady drop in sales. This entire run could have been good if it was under a decent editor who reined in the manga elements and honed it down into a tight, lean thriller of fifty issues. Or as Stephen King (God help us considering how long his books are) says: twenty percent of every finished story is unnecessary. Cut it. Don't bore your readers, and remember, they're a better judge of your story and smarter than you are.*

*Not an exact quote, but a paraphrase of a couple chapters of On Writing.

[lilyrose]

Yeah, there's a lot of filler, which is why I think a 12 issue maxi will be good for his story and his writing, actually. His others minis were good, I think he's better in that format.

[Talon1load]

Again, just plain wrong.

It is easy to judge with plenty of credibility because some of us are judging based on what they are actually doing. It is pretty easy to say what some would and would not to once they are actually doing it.

You just look at what they are doing.

Ok. I guess we can just sit back and see what happens.

[JasonTodd428]

Bendis is a recognizable name. That’s true. DC did do a lot to sway him over from Marvel but that doesn’t mean it was the best idea. I think the jury is still out on how good an idea it was. We’ll see.
I have no idea what the trade sales are on Mr Miracle.
Looking at reviews on comicbookroundup his Batman does well with critics but much less so with fans. No idea how many people register to post reviews though. Near universal praise seems a bit of a stretch. Sheriff wasn’t bad. I read the first trade of that but wasn’t interested enough to read the rest. As for his presence on social media, please. The number of sycophants on his Twitter is more indicative of the sad state of the world than anything else. People fawning over a celebrity just hoping he’ll respond to them is actually pretty disgusting and sad.
I feel like the sequence of events is important to keep in mind. DC didn’t announce that King was working a movie and then would need to come off of Batman early. No, it came out that he was being removed from the book and then days later it came out that he was helping write a movie. DC could have immediately come out and said that he was coming off for other reasons but they didn’t. They knew how it looked and allowed it to come off that way for a reason. As we’ve seen, you’re going to believe whatever you want and so will I. In the end, you continue to make claims without the evidence to confirm them. You can try to spin it otherwise to make yourself feel better but it just doesn’t make it anymore true.

The sequence of events you mentioned only happened in that particular order because Rich at BC leaked a rumor that King was off the book before DC was ready to make any such announcements. It is very likely that DC was planning to announce King was moving off of Batman, would be writing a Batman/Catwoman book in order to finish his planned Batman story and that he would be co-writing the New Gods movie as part of their announcements at SDCC next month. This nonsense forced their hand and so they had to announce everything prematurely which is how we ended up with this order of things.

[numberthirty]

The sequence of events you mentioned only happened in that particular order because Rich at BC leaked a rumor that King was off the book before DC was ready to make any such announcements. It is very likely that DC was planning to announce King was moving off of Batman, would be writing a Batman/Catwoman book in order to finish his planned Batman story and that he would be co-writing the New Gods movie as part of their announcements at SDCC next month. This nonsense forced their hand and so they had to announce everything prematurely which is how we ended up with this order of things.

Exactly.

Take a minute to seriously consider(and reconsider) what the odds are that DC perfectly slapped that plan together off of the cuff.

Who actually believes that is even likely? Never mind the most likely possible way it could have happened.