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Thread: WATCHMEN on HBO

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    I have really mixed feelings about this episode. I can’t shake the idea that it is being watered down a little for its audience. This feels true for the whole series to some extent. Every theme has a lantern hung on it. Every mystery is not only being revealed but brought out in the dialogue.

    The series has been on a journey, not just of explaining itself, but demystifying itself. It is as if Lindelof has taken criticisms of his work being opaque to heart, and that has resulted in a lesser product. This episode had far too many tidy bows. The most clumsy being the overly convenient recordings on Laurie’s dictaphone. Sometimes I wonder if this is something we can actually lay at the show runner’s feet or if it is the episode writer taking necessary shortcuts to hit the beats they have to.

    The reveals themselves were fun. Especially the final reveal which is one of those rewarding reveals that was right there in front of our eyes and double underlined in dialogue hints. I am certainly not going to complain about a Lost style flashback episode that gives us insight into a character.

    So, that results in a bit of a mixed bag. I always remember that Lost used to have problems in the lead-up to final episodes. Sometimes, while enjoying the experience, an element of what made the show what it was seemed to be missing, as the plot was pushed along towards a crescendo it was more easy to spot the contrivances and expository dialogue became more prevalent. On the other hand, I am usually the first to point out that exposition is essential and that all story is contrivance. I hope this all bodes well for the final two episodes. That all of this revelation will push us towards a satisfactory conclusion.
    Yeah dude, uh, no. I'll take easier to decipher over eternal enigma every damn day.

  2. #212
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    This was the first episode I didn't like. I'd go so far as to say that if not played carefully might ruin the series for me. How they are handling Manhattan is IMO character assassination that completely misses the point of the character.

  3. #213
    Astonishing Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    Very happy Looking Glass escaped. I really love the character and Tim Blake Nelson is one of my favorite actors. We hadn’t really gotten to see him fight before, but seeing the 7th Calvary on the ground shows that he can definitely take care of himself. When they were panning around his bomb shelter I noticed a copy of the New Frontiersman.
    I'm also happy to see that he survived. Two things:
    -- LG is almost certainly running around now in a Rorschach mask (fulfilling his thematic destiny as the true heir to Kovacs and perhaps reflecting his new viewpoint after seeing the Veidt tape?) The Question is, (see what I did there?) will he show up just in time to help Laurie/ruin the Kavalry's plans? Sounds to neat for "Watchmen." I have a concern LG will try to pull a Travis Bickle and end up dead for his failed effort.(or maybe that's a "Dead Zone" )
    -- Looking at the scene in LG's bunker, how the hell did that even go down? Five Kavalry members in such a confined space? From the blood splatters and layout of the bodies, it's not like the dumped them in there afterwards. The only thing I can imagine if it was a little like "Unforgiven" where maybe a few of them were nervous or inexperienced and maybe got in each other's way? Or he had the bunker rigged with something...?

    BTW - as I said before, this show is bonkers. There are a lot of WTF moments in this show that have nothing to do with the plot, and for me the scene of Laurie and whatsername with the old remote control clicker trying to get the couch trap door to open was hilarious! Laurie really should have gotten up or taken the thing from her regardless of how innocuous it looked - she was obviously pointing it in a threatening manner. Silk Sprectre's slowed down a bit.

    And about that -- is the Senator (or Judd's wife) really not worried about the FBI? I'm sure the answer is probably "yes," but I don't like when shows don't acknowledge things like that - it would be natural to think that the cops or FBI might know she went to the house. It was just luck she didn't tell her partner but they didn't know that.
    Last edited by j9ac9k; 12-04-2019 at 12:21 PM.

  4. #214
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    This was the first episode I didn't like. I'd go so far as to say that if not played carefully might ruin the series for me. How they are handling Manhattan is IMO character assassination that completely misses the point of the character.
    It can't be any worse than what Doomsday Clock did with Manhattan.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    This was the first episode I didn't like. I'd go so far as to say that if not played carefully might ruin the series for me. How they are handling Manhattan is IMO character assassination that completely misses the point of the character.
    The next episode is a definitely a make-or-break as far as this reveal is concerned. They’re going to have to pull a Herculean feat of writing to truly convince a lot of people that this makes sense for Doctor Manhattan’s character. For myself, I think it kind of makes sense, considering when you think about how Jon was both blessed with and cursed with powers of a God. Being Doctor Manhattan made him immortal but it took a toll on his intimate relationships like Janey and Laurie. I think deep down Doctor Manhattan wanted to be human again and didn’t desire to be an immortal God forever. I think to him he wanted re-experience love — this time in the form of a human being with memories of being a God so he could avoid alienating another loved one like he did with his Ex’s. Perhaps Manhattan was envious of us mortals and was sick of being a God and for once wanted to be the “puppet who couldn’t see the strings.”
    Last edited by Amadeus Arkham; 12-07-2019 at 07:19 PM.
    "I love mankind...it's people I can't stand!!"

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  6. #216
    Fantastic Member Wandering_Wand's Avatar
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    The series has definitely gotten better for me, but there's been a couple episodes that were real momentum killers for me. I think the series pacing and storytelling has been a little inconsistent, but overall it's kept me interested.

    I haven't checked to see how the ratings have been, but regardless how this series ends this season, I hope HBO decides to stick with the 9 episode 1 season and doesn't renew. I just don't want the Watchmen brand watered down anymore. So far this has been an interesting, and I guess "fun" take, but we'll see how the last couple episodes finish.

  7. #217
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Doctor Manhattan doesn't seem like a character that anyone really gets. Between this and Doomsday Clock, he's batting zero.

    I love Louis Gossett Jr. in this, though.
    Follow your inner moonlight, do not hide the madness. -Ginsberg

  8. #218
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sammael View Post
    Yeah dude, uh, no. I'll take easier to decipher over eternal enigma every damn day.
    I get that. But for me personally I like a bit of mystery and ambiguity. We will probably get that still but we will see. One of the criticisms of the comic that I personally agree with is the overly tidy and neat way everything is handled. Morrison described it as a bit like a Sixth Form poem, and I see that as partly describing it’s very formal structure. Everything was tidy and in its place, and everything related to everything else in an admittedly satisfying manner that rewards rereading, but ultimately feels like it is an onion. All layers and flavour and little else.

    Not that I don’t appreciate Watchmen as a work of comic book genius; not that formality is bad or that tying everything up in a neat bow is wrong but this is Lindelof’s Watchmen and I am mostly here because of his style. I am that person who defends Lost because it wasn’t about the ending but the journey. I get why it dissatisfied some, but for me it will always be a seminal work that still heavily influences TV across the board.

    Also, Morrison’s dislike of Watchmen is exaggerated. He praises it while critiquing it just as much as he finds flaws. I have my own love hate relationship with the source material, primarily because to me it didn’t feel as original as everyone seemed to think at the time. I could see the primary sources and the references from my favourite science fiction, including the derivative ending ripped from the pages of stories I loved by Vonnegut and Sturgeon. Not plagiarism but not as original as Moore seems to insist everyone else should be.

    I was already falling out of love with superheroes by then anyway and soon I would abandon them. It took a long while to fall in love with them again, and it was primarily when the huge shadow that Moore and Miller had finally begun to recede. Not that I blame either of them for this. I enjoyed their works and still see much to admire in them.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  9. #219
    Ultimate Member JKtheMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    This was the first episode I didn't like. I'd go so far as to say that if not played carefully might ruin the series for me. How they are handling Manhattan is IMO character assassination that completely misses the point of the character.
    Interesting take. Why do you say this? What have we seen that detracts from his portrayal in the comic? What was the point in your opinion? I would say his point was the impact he had on everyone and everything around him, and his complete lack of morals until his quite unrealistic epiphany on Mars.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  10. #220
    Extraordinary Member Robotman's Avatar
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    Watchmen is HBO’s most popular new show of the year

    https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/12...bout-season-2/


    ● Through its first seven episodes, Lindelof’s series is averaging 7.1M viewers across HBO’s cable and streaming services – marking it as premium cable’s most popular new series this year (and the cable giant’s most-watched new series since 2017’s Big Little Lies).

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    Interesting take. Why do you say this? What have we seen that detracts from his portrayal in the comic? What was the point in your opinion? I would say his point was the impact he had on everyone and everything around him, and his complete lack of morals until his quite unrealistic epiphany on Mars.
    The point IMO(so if you disagree fine but I am only speaking for myself) is his distance from humanity(both mentally and physically(in terms of danger)). He was invincible and could of solved most of humanities problems but chose not too because he was becoming less and less human as time went on. The show undercut both by making him care enough to become human again and making him vulnerable to human plots. Both things make him too human which was specifically what they character was moving away from during his entire story arc.

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    You seemed to take an awful lot of effort to say you don’t see things the way I do. But, then you seemed to use my own counter argument like for example the position in the series. I have no idea why you decided to take issue with my critique. I was expressing a personal dissatisfaction with an otherwise enjoyable experience, nothing more.
    And I was thinking aloud that where you have dissatisfaction, I see reasons that might cause it - and yet despite those reasons, can't get a full grip on what you're referring to.

    I'm not "taking issue," just trying to open/continue a dialogue. You seem to be disappointed things are starting to wrap up - I note that it's nearing the end. You seem to find certain pieces of dialogue clunky - I'm curious if I missed them, or just heard them in a more receptive mindset.

    Dialogue and curiosity. Not argument. I don't think you're "WRONG!," I'm just interested in whether there were specific beats that let you down.

    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    It certainly has nothing to do with realism. Nothing about Watchmen has ever been realistic. Watchmen as a comic was also self-consciously contrived, so nothing new there either.
    First, I'll defer - I meant "contextual" realism, so 'within the circumstances as seen' the explicit dialogue doesn't seem like hard exposition, but seems like the product of the sort of conversations that sort of person would have in that sort of circumstance. To me.

    Second, I will cautiously disagree - the worlds of Watchmen are, I think, broadly VERY realistic. Inasmuchas, yes, telepathic teleporting squid monsters and Dr. Manhattan... But... those are relatively small(!) and relatively brief(!!) steps to the side of Actual Reality and into Alternate Reality.

    Telepathy and teleportation aren't entirely outside the bounds of hard science, but also do not have much more than a passing relationship to the comics. Dr. Manhattan is certainly an extreme influence and improbable being, but he's also the lynchpin around which this reality turns. Taking that as written, the rest of the extrapolations are fairly benign and realistic. Why wouldn't there be vigilantes? Why wouldn't a consciousness that was able to reassemble itself also be able to manipulate matter and inspire scientific leaps? Etc.

    That may not read as coherently as it souns in my head, but.. the worlds react, I feel, "realistically" to the brief-if-significant departures from our own understanding.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    He was invincible and could of solved most of humanities problems but chose not too because he was becoming less and less human as time went on. The show undercut both by making him care enough to become human again and making him vulnerable to human plots. Both things make him too human which was specifically what they character was moving away from during his entire story arc.
    Gods (and anthropomorphic personifications) have always taken time off to walk among humanity, in the stories we tell of them (or even some religious texts).

    It doesn't seem entirely improbable - especially after the contrived-but-no-less-accurate Mars realisation that Life is Miraculous.

    But it will be interesting to see how its addressed and explained. If it's the cop-out pre-destination "because that's what must happen," that will be frustratingly obtuse (if admirable); anything else will need to be well-written and explained.

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ntnon View Post
    Gods (and anthropomorphic personifications) have always taken time off to walk among humanity, in the stories we tell of them (or even some religious texts).
    Manhattan isn't like ye olden time versions of gods or even modern time superheroes. He's more like a transhuman fictions idea of a post human. Him being human more in form than thought or existence was a deconstruction all on it's own to the Q type gods that only pay lip service to being wildly different than human while otherwise acting exactly like us only with god-like powers.

  15. #225
    Astonishing Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farealmer View Post
    The point IMO(so if you disagree fine but I am only speaking for myself) is his distance from humanity(both mentally and physically(in terms of danger)). He was invincible and could of solved most of humanities problems but chose not too because he was becoming less and less human as time went on. The show undercut both by making him care enough to become human again and making him vulnerable to human plots. Both things make him too human which was specifically what they character was moving away from during his entire story arc.
    I imagine we'll see in the next ep, but keep in mind decades went by (as if time matters to Dr M) between Squid night and when he becomes Cal. Perhaps he did all that cosmic stuff during that time before deciding to come full circle and be a man again...?

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