WATCHMEN on HBO

[Ntnon]

I can certainly understand Manhattan's desire to reconnect with humanity after his experiment failed BUT I would think it'd take longer than 20-30 years for him to feel that way.

He wanted to create life that would be "better," so he did. And it was. But that took no time at all, and, as it was so selflessly altruistic, it was boring. And, in any case, thirty years into the future he re-re-discovered the essence of humanity - the spark of stubbornness borne of uncertainty - when he fell in love with a woman who refused to believe the future was set, and fought to change reality.

He can change reality, but only within the parameters of how he will already have changed humanity. Angela cannot change reality, but she gave it her best shot KNOWING the futility of her actions, because she loved him. And for him to be where he was when he learned these facts, he needed to reconnect and act out his part at the times that would put him in that place.

Like a watch. Everything in its place.

But how did Trieu know he was on Europa? And did Will find Trieu, or did Trieu find Will? And whither Adrian or the Clock?

[j9ac9k]

It's literary criticism, and at least as valid as much of the output of such fields - arguably more..

Well, I guess it depends on how much you value literary criticsim in general. ... but from a cultural standpoint, my reaction was mostly due to the quotation attributed to Moore that implies the Klan may have been the genesis of masked superheroes when it's just one stop along the spectrum of cultural iconography and behavior/fiction/fantasy. I'm sure Moore has a lot to say about it that would be interesting, but I'm just going off the one quotation. The Klan certainly had influences for their outfits and the masks, etc. is all I'm saying and american superheroes are more than just white power fantasies - it might be subset, but I found it reductive for Moore to say that's all it is.

[j9ac9k]

A few more thoughts about the latest ep "A God Walks into Abar"
-- It's a glaring question, but it is a fairly big one: Why did Veidt say that he didn't need the horseshoe yet? How could he know that he would need it at some point? I imagine they'll explain it, but from what we've been shown, there's no reason he would know. Part of me wonders if the horseshoe is a reference to the whole, "For lack of a nail, a shoe was lost, for lack of a shoe, etc etc" which seems to me a bit like Laurie's joke about the "orphan brick" that killed God.
-- It's interesting that we didn't really see the moment when Angela actually realized she was talking to Dr Manhattan.
-- Is it ironic that Jon fled the Nazis only to one day create a "utopia" where the only people there are white and all look the same, literally coming from a shallow gene pool? (and are also prone to "following orders?")

What's on Jon's nightstand?
20191213_015630.jpg
I see something that looks like a pyramid, a clock and something (a mug?) that's yellow with some kind of black design on it. (there are also elephant bookends in the BG) And Angela just put on a silk robe. (we know they have an owl mug, but that doesn't seem to be in the scene) It's like the gang's all here... time is a flat circle, after all... I feel like this scene probably parallels the fight between Laurie and Jon when they're also in the middle of having sex, but I don't remember enough about that other scene to say. (other than the fight was about Jon's detachment)

[DjMichael691]

[daBronzeBomma]

Read the comic (brilliant).

Watched the movie (disappointing).

Watched the TV (excellent).

Ignored BEFORE WATCHMEN and haven't read DOOMSDAY CLOCK (how are they?)

I loved this episode of WATCHMEN on HBO. It is easily, IMO, the greatest Doctor Manhattan story ever told.

I did have issues with the FX on Yahya's blue Doc (this is the only area where Snyder outdoes Lindelof), but I thought Jon was far more striking as Cal in the Black suit and white shirt (or in the buff) than he was as glowing or especially non-throwing blue forms.

Doctor Manhattan's weakness had always been emotions, especially the romantic type. He's never been able to process them in any sort of intimate way for very long.

Don't forget, Jon started banging with Laurie when the latter was a 16- year- old in the comics. Kinda pervy on Jon's part.

So hyped for the finale on Sunday. Fingers crossed that they don't pull a GOT and **** the bed on this.

[j9ac9k]

If Keane gets the powers of Dr Manhattan, would he even care about whatever his earthly agenda was or would his shift in perspective essentially make him just like Dr Manhattan?

I'm expecting Looking Glass to show up in a Rorschach mask and be the one to help Laurie escape ... which is probably why it won't happen. Although with how much this show references the comic, I also wouldn't be surprised if history repeats and Keane/Manhattan kills LG for knowing too much.

[Ntnon]

Well, I guess it depends on how much you value literary criticsim in general. ...

Oh, absolutely. I still have occasional nightmares about parsing poetry at high school... (Yes, the colour references MAY have had deep subliminal and referential context, but one most levels "green grass" was written because Grass is Green, not because grass is envy incarnate..)

The Klan certainly had influences for their outfits and the masks, etc. is all I'm saying and american superheroes are more than just white power fantasies - it might be subset, but I found it reductive for Moore to say that's all it is.

As you note, I doubt a single non-contextual soundbite really implies 'that's all it is,' and certainly the American superhero owes as much to 'the Jewish experience' and dreams of the powerless being able to affect the world powerfully. But even that is quite close to '[white] power fantasy'.

I wonder if there are academic studies?

[Ntnon]

A few more thoughts about the latest ep "A God Walks into Abar"
-- It's a glaring question, but it is a fairly big one: Why did Veidt say that he didn't need the horseshoe yet? How could he know that he would need it at some point? I imagine they'll explain it, but from what we've been shown, there's no reason he would know. Part of me wonders if the horseshoe is a reference to the whole, "For lack of a nail, a shoe was lost, for lack of a shoe, etc etc" which seems to me a bit like Laurie's joke about the "orphan brick" that killed God.

There's certainly something deeper than it being just an implement to dig with, but whether or not it's deliberately obtuse or about to be revealed will be an interesting debate in a couple of days.

-- Is it ironic that Jon fled the Nazis only to one day create a "utopia" where the only people there are white and all look the same, literally coming from a shallow gene pool? (and are also prone to "following orders?")

"Shallow gene pool" - brilliant.

I would like to think that the skin colour and relative subservience/lack of will are actually entirely apart from Nazism and other connotations.

Particularly in a show so glaringly focused on race, I would hope this was a pointed "sometimes a pipe is just a pipe" moment: Jon created life in the image of the people who were kind to him at a difficult time. Colourblind and entirely separate from any -isms. Likewise, he picked a black man's body to better blend in in the circumstances/place he was in when he found Angela. Nothing deeper than either of those reasonings, just pragmatism.

[Ntnon]

Doctor Manhattan's weakness had always been emotions, especially the romantic type. He's never been able to process them in any sort of intimate way for very long..

Quite. He's a scientist, and more than that. He knows what will happen, and he's stuck in that rut, and the necessary problems it causes in those who are stuck with him. Love and "feelings" are unscientific, undefinable and difficult to process - how much odder are they when you experience their outward totality concurrently?

It's one thing to not understand something well, another to try and grasp that it is entirely outside even being graspable, but Manhattan also has to grapple with knowing how his - and others' - reactions, understandings, incomprehension and revelations have already been determined.

I think that was very well portrayed on the page, and possibly even better here on the screen. He loves because he knows he loves, not because he is free to feel it. And while he understands everything, that understanding is hand-in-hand with the wise old saying that the smartest people know they know nothing. Everything and nothing coexisting.

[Ntnon]

If Keane gets the powers of Dr Manhattan, would he even care about whatever his earthly agenda was or would his shift in perspective essentially make him just like Dr Manhattan?

I'm expecting Looking Glass to show up in a Rorschach mask and be the one to help Laurie escape ... which is probably why it won't happen. Although with how much this show references the comic, I also wouldn't be surprised if history repeats and Keane/Manhattan kills LG for knowing too much.

I suspect Manhattan will outsmart and outlive his 'death' by breaking free of his predetermined path. But such a step, albeit a predictable unpredictable behaviour must have critical repercussions.

But it's still all so mysterious and splintered - Looking Glass, Keane, Blake, Angela, Will, Manhattan, Trieu, Veidt, the clock, the Kavalry, Cyclops, Europa-Utopia, conspiracy and squidfalls - that it could go a thousand different ways and still be brilliant (or polarising - or both).

[j9ac9k]

Or the show will shift from Dr Manhattan to Dr Strangelove and the world will just blow up and none of that stuff will even matter...

[Electricmastro]

Shoes? Not masks? You see no parallels between people who hide their true identity so they can fight society's bad influences for their own take on creating a better future and superheroes? You see not even the shadow of a line between two disparate groups of peculiarly American social reformers dominated by white men who hide behind masks and take the law into their own hands..? It may be reaching, but it's MUCH more than shoes.

In any case, bank robbers echo highwaymen and outlaws. Like Robin Hood and Dick Turpin. Who inspired superheroes.

Yep, and superhero influences in that case go farther back than the post-Civil War era. Also to consider are masks being used for wrestlers and carnivals and circuses, Superman himself being visually inspired by the colorful circus strongman.

And then tell me that more people aren't now aware thanks to HBO and press coverage...

Academic discussions may be "better" but they also have to be more than a whisper in a quiet room to be discussions.

Like I said, academic research and discussion and evidence should take importance over TV shows at least in regards to learning more about the world around you. And like you said, while this doesn’t negate constructive criticism towards the show, it should definitely encourage more people to research said evidence and promote discussion and possible solutions to the problem, not replace it, regardless of the “better” whispers you were also talking about.

[j9ac9k]

Yep, and superhero influences in that case go farther back than the post-Civil War era. Also to consider are masks being used for wrestlers and carnivals and circuses, Superman himself being visually inspired by the colorful circus strongman.

And of course, Superman and Captain Marvel, as well as Wonder Woman, three of the first superheroes, don't even wear masks. If, of the Trinity only Batman wears one, and he was more influenced by Zorro, who was based on (I think) the Scarlett Pimpernel, then they were fighting the establishment, which takes it away from vigilantiism.... but I haven't done enough research to know for sure. (I mean, there's also the legend of the Boston Tea Party where the revolutionaries wore disguises... but again, one could write a PhD dissertation on this topic as there are so many examples)

Like I said, academic research and discussion and evidence should take importance over TV shows at least in regards to learning more about the world around you. And like you said, while this doesn’t negate constructive criticism towards the show, it should definitely encourage more people to research said evidence and promote discussion and possible solutions to the problem, not replace it, regardless of the “better” whispers you were also talking about.

I agree, but there is no shortage of period-piece movies or tv shows. This is nothing new. Is it the politically-charged issues of this show that makes it more of a topic now as opposed to say,"Wonder Woman?" Because I thought that movie was terrible for its use of history.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

That was a great interview.

I'm excited for Sunday's episode.

[CRaymond]

I get the sense that it will be Topher Abar that goes for the swim in the pool. A Manhattan'd Sister Night would be boring to watch. You don't hire Regina King to be stoic and inhuman.