WATCHMEN on HBO

[j9ac9k]

Unless spoilers:

an egg is just an egg

end of spoilers

It would be hilarious if DrM just set her up as a practical joke with the pool. But also kinda sweet, since he's been criticized for not having a sense of humor.

[Immortal Weapon]

Outstanding finale.

I only want a season 2 if the same showrunner comes back, with as much forethought and effort as he poured into this season.

If he won't or can't, then I'm totally good with this season being the entire series. Quit while you're ahead.

Honestly if it gets another season I want it to follow a new cast of characters. Bring back characters they can still do things with like Looking Glass but Angela and Hooded Justice, their stories are finished.

[j9ac9k]

SPOILERS FOR THE FINALE
The whole thing was great, etc. and I will post more later, but this post is the stuff that bothered me:
-- My only big complaint is Angela's plan to run into the mall and reason with Keane and the 7th K/Cyclops - in what world did she think they'd listen to her? She managed to get in there after taking out the guards, she could have sabotaged the equipment in some other way. Even when Trieu showed up, she could have tried to shut it down but just stood there asking Jon what to do. For a person of action like Angela has been, I'm surprised she didn't even try to pull the plug.
-- It was less than satisfying that Keane sent Laurie to Tulsa just to witness the event and there was no practical reason for it. For a show with such a complicated plot that was pretty masterful at tying things together, it just makes no sense. What if she'd taken the whole team with her as she was assigned? They could have screwed up the whole plan.
-- I thought maybe there'd be more to Judd's story. What did he mean when he told Will "I'm trying to help you people?" Even from what I think is his perspective, I'm not sure how he could think that.
-- It seemed odd that the show had to have LG pilot Archie - Laurie's right there and she was partners with Dan, working together for at least some time after the Keane Act. Surely, she knew how to pilot Archie.

[MichaelC]

SPOILERS FOR THE FINALE
The whole thing was great, etc. and I will post more later, but this post is the stuff that bothered me:
-- My only big complaint is Angela's plan to run into the mall and reason with Keane and the 7th K/Cyclops - in what world did she think they'd listen to her? She managed to get in there after taking out the guards, she could have sabotaged the equipment in some other way. Even when Trieu showed up, she could have tried to shut it down but just stood there asking Jon what to do. For a person of action like Angela has been, I'm surprised she didn't even try to pull the plug.
-- It was less than satisfying that Keane sent Laurie to Tulsa just to witness the event and there was no practical reason for it. For a show with such a complicated plot that was pretty masterful at tying things together, it just makes no sense. What if she'd taken the whole team with her as she was assigned? They could have screwed up the whole plan.
-- I thought maybe there'd be more to Judd's story. What did he mean when he told Will "I'm trying to help you people?" Even from what I think is his perspective, I'm not sure how he could think that.
-- It seemed odd that the show had to have LG pilot Archie - Laurie's right there and she was partners with Dan, working together for at least some time after the Keane Act. Surely, she knew how to pilot Archie.

I think Judd was a genuine true-believing alt-right type who really believed that things like segregation was better for everyone. He was deeply deluded, in other words. His wife was a much more self-aware kind of evil.

[Kirby101]

I think Judd was a genuine true-believing alt-right type who really believed that things like segregation was better for everyone. He was deeply deluded, in other words. His wife was a much more self-aware kind of evil.

Yeah, anyone who follows "I'm trying to help" with "you people", isn't going to help.

[Flash Gordon]

Ultimately this was alright.

It was no Alan Moore book, but it was a solid little genre series. Surely better than something like DOOMSDAY CLOCK since this has something to actually say about the real world.

Liked the whole oligarchal battle over Doctor Manhattan's abilities, but did not care for everything involving Doctor Manhattan himself. It seemed to forget that Doc isn't a good dude, either.

Louis Gosset Jr. was rad.

[Rincewind]

SPOILERS FOR THE FINALE
The whole thing was great, etc. and I will post more later, but this post is the stuff that bothered me:
-- My only big complaint is Angela's plan to run into the mall and reason with Keane and the 7th K/Cyclops - in what world did she think they'd listen to her? She managed to get in there after taking out the guards, she could have sabotaged the equipment in some other way. Even when Trieu showed up, she could have tried to shut it down but just stood there asking Jon what to do. For a person of action like Angela has been, I'm surprised she didn't even try to pull the plug.
-- It was less than satisfying that Keane sent Laurie to Tulsa just to witness the event and there was no practical reason for it. For a show with such a complicated plot that was pretty masterful at tying things together, it just makes no sense. What if she'd taken the whole team with her as she was assigned? They could have screwed up the whole plan.
-- I thought maybe there'd be more to Judd's story. What did he mean when he told Will "I'm trying to help you people?" Even from what I think is his perspective, I'm not sure how he could think that.
-- It seemed odd that the show had to have LG pilot Archie - Laurie's right there and she was partners with Dan, working together for at least some time after the Keane Act. Surely, she knew how to pilot Archie.

I thought Keane sent Laurie to Tulsa to sideline Angela, which made Cal vulnerable. That was also why Looking Glass was targeted to turn against Angela.

[stillanerd]

Not going to lie, I thought the finale felt rushed and underwhelming. This isn't to say I haven't enjoyed the series. Episodes 5 and 6 were some of the best hours of television this year. That being said, Damon Lindelof ending up doing what he always ends up doing, in that he created so much build up with his "mysteries" that, in the end, they end up collapsing like that pod thing did in the episode itself. Still, you can't fault him for his ambition and audacity in making a Watchmen sequel.

Watchmen season 1, episode 9 review: See How They Fly

[j9ac9k]

I thought Keane sent Laurie to Tulsa to sideline Angela, which made Cal vulnerable. That was also why Looking Glass was targeted to turn against Angela.

At least that would make sense, but it's not what he said. I'm going to believe you're right and he was just being a dick when he said what he did to Laurie.

[Jokerz79]

Loved the Hooded Justice backstory but I just can't with the Dr. Manhattan storyline I can't believe the Dr. Manhattan from Alan Moore's Watchmen who spent the who book detaching from humanity would become this character.

[Flash Gordon]

Loved the Hooded Justice backstory but I just can't with the Dr. Manhattan storyline I can't believe the Dr. Manhattan from Alan Moore's Watchmen who spent the who book detaching from humanity would become this character.

Same here, I wish the whole show had been about the Hooded Justice vs Cyclops and that pouring into modern day with Sister Night. You could have still had the whole spoilers:

"recreate Doctor Manhattan thing"

end of spoilers but without totally changing who and what Doctor Manhattan was, to get there.

I wish we saw more of Hooded Justice as a young man, and more with Louis Gosset Jr. as 100 year old HJ.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Yeah I've heard many people say that once Dr. Manhatten was brought into it the show kinda lost some steam. It's incredibly hard to do that character right. It's difficult to think of the character from the Comics making a lot of the decisions he made.

[JKtheMac]

Loved the Hooded Justice backstory but I just can't with the Dr. Manhattan storyline I can't believe the Dr. Manhattan from Alan Moore's Watchmen who spent the who book detaching from humanity would become this character.

I think this is very much a philosophical outlook issue. Moore was writing a much more nihilistic book. Indeed, I believe the hidden message in Watchmen is that the plan unravels almost immediately and the doomsday clock is reset as an inevitable consequence of the ending (visually referenced by the ketchup splat being back at five minutes to midnight, and narratively by the way the journal sends us back to the beginning like a James Joyce novel.) Moore is not offering hope or trying to make Rorschach a folk hero, he is showing how inadequate superheroes are at changing complex global situations.

Lindelof is not being nihilistic. He is openly asking why Dr M is not more proactive, and challenging that perspective in the dialogue. He leaves the way open for a true superhero who can change the world. Whether consciously or not, Lindelof is building off of Moore’s later expressed concerns that superheroes are part of the skewed race relations in the US and intrinsically dysfunctional, but Lindelof is more optimistic.

Where Moore postulates that Birth of a Nation is a proto-superhero narrative, and that superheroes have not escaped that legacy*, Lindelof creates a world where a rival narrative was created. A fictional black analog of Birth of a Nation, that features a real black hero who fights for the rule of law. A predating of the incidents that made Moore’s alt history divergent, back to the very era when this heroic prototype was being born.

Lindelof clearly wants the world to be better. He is pointing to a more positive future where a female black successor can carry forward the legacy of both Hooded Justice and Doctor Manhattan. Lots of work was put into making them two sides of a coin, and the story was clearly about dealing with legacy both functionally and dysfunctionally. This is not an on-rails tragedy doomed to repeat itself while commenting upon the medium’s inadequacy, this is an aspirational dream of a less tragic future.

So effectively the whole idea that these are the same characters is irrelevant. This is an entirely different story with an entirely different message from an entirely different perspective and written in entirely different circumstances. Of course the characters are different.

Thank goodness it is a different story. Nobody wants a backward looking rehash of an eighties comic surely

* I would also remark that save for a smattering of non-white characters (and non-white creators) these books and these iconic characters are still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race. In fact, I think that a good argument can be made for D.W. Griffith’s Birth of a Nation as the first American superhero movie, and the point of origin for all those capes and masks. Moore to Raphael Sassaki translated here.

[Jokerz79]

I think this is very much a philosophical outlook issue. Moore was writing a much more nihilistic book. Indeed, I believe the hidden message in Watchmen is that the plan unravels almost immediately and the doomsday clock is reset as an inevitable consequence of the ending (visually referenced by the ketchup splat being back at five minutes to midnight, and narratively by the way the journal sends us back to the beginning like a James Joyce novel.) Moore is not offering hope or trying to make Rorschach a folk hero, he is showing how inadequate superheroes are at changing complex global situations.

Lindelof is not being nihilistic. He is openly asking why Dr M is not more proactive, and challenging that perspective in the dialogue. He leaves the way open for a true superhero who can change the world. Whether consciously or not, Lindelof is building off of Moore’s later expressed concerns that superheroes are part of the skewed race relations in the US and intrinsically dysfunctional, but Lindelof is more optimistic.

Where Moore postulates that Birth of a Nation is a proto-superhero narrative, and that superheroes have not escaped that legacy*, Lindelof creates a world where a rival narrative was created. A fictional black analog of Birth of a Nation, that features a real black hero who fights for the rule of law. A predating of the incidents that made Moore’s alt history divergent, back to the very era when this heroic prototype was being born.

Lindelof clearly wants the world to be better. He is pointing to a more positive future where a female black successor can carry forward the legacy of both Hooded Justice and Doctor Manhattan. Lots of work was put into making them two sides of a coin, and the story was clearly about dealing with legacy both functionally and dysfunctionally. This is not an on-rails tragedy doomed to repeat itself while commenting upon the medium’s inadequacy, this is an aspirational dream of a less tragic future.

So effectively the whole idea that these are the same characters is irrelevant. This is an entirely different story with an entirely different message from an entirely different perspective and written in entirely different circumstances. Of course the characters are different.

Thank goodness it is a different story. Nobody wants a backward looking rehash of an eighties comic surely

* I would also remark that save for a smattering of non-white characters (and non-white creators) these books and these iconic characters are still very much white supremacist dreams of the master race. In fact, I think that a good argument can be made for D.W. Griffith’s Birth of a Nation as the first American superhero movie, and the point of origin for all those capes and masks. Moore to Raphael Sassaki translated here.

Then create a new character instead of changing one to fit their stories narrative.

Also yes I would have wanted a HBO or Netflix miniseries of the original graphic novel given I don't think we have ever gotten a proper one on screen.

[j9ac9k]

Yeah I've heard many people say that once Dr. Manhatten was brought into it the show kinda lost some steam. It's incredibly hard to do that character right. It's difficult to think of the character from the Comics making a lot of the decisions he made.

Regardless of how Dr M was characterized (which I could buy into - as detached as he was or claimed to be, he was never not driven by emotions, especially when a woman was involved), for me personally, the last few episodes steered the show into a bit more of a traditional superhero/sci-fi film. It became about the bad guys' plans to steal Dr M's power and we get two grandstanding Bond villain speeches in a row.(complete with killer lasers) Then the 7th K and Cyclops are just wiped out, then Trieu's plans fall apart. Done. It was still entertaining and I could never have predicted "squid bullets" or Veidt actually saving the day. (did he? What if Trieu was actually able to make things better? Veidt of course thinks he's the only one who can save the world)

For a show that had set such a high bar for complex characterizations and challenging stories, it all wrapped up a little too neatly. It lacked the moral ambiguity of the graphic novel where peace was paid for with 3 million lives and all the heroes did was fail to prevent Veidt from saving the world. If there was some sense that the heroes here actually stopped the world from being saved, or acknowledged that they might have made race relations worse or .... something a little more challenging of an ending which the show had been doing all along rather than focus on who gets Dr M's power. (I was hoping Angela would just break that last egg and realize nobody should have that power - and that she wouldn't want it, knowing what it did to Jon)

Although if they do a season 2, maybe she'll use that Plan A device - which she had put in her pocket.