Evil Supermen

[Robanker]

See, I was able to better take Injustice Superman in the first game because he was there as a foil with the real Superman there to show up and beat him at the end.

Yeah, same here. Then they doubled down on Ultraman.

[Talon1load]

I don’t think you guys are getting how Elseworlds stories work. He’s not supposed to be completely in character with the main universe Superman. That’s the entire point.

[superduperman]

Well I think there should be a distinction between superman turning evil and an evil superman expy. The latter is cool when they say, go deep on the Sentry like his last series did. The former is far overstated in these parts. I just don't see why Injustice matters so much to people, especially since the game playing experience has nothing to do with the story. Are the comics really that popular?

I think it works out when they don't forget that Superman, good or bad, is the protagonist. It has to make sense as to why he is opposed to others on the side of good, you can't just say "okay now he's crazy now." In all three Armageddon specials he ascended to a ruling position. In the Superman one, he loses Lois and Metropolis, and is eventually hunted down and killed by Batman. It was great. Although maybe not in concept to some, because I've gotten the impression that whether you have Batman hunt Superman or Superman hunt Batman, people will come away being down on Superman regardless.

The comics probably aren't that popular. In fact, I think they cut Injustice 2 comics short because nobody was buying them. I started collecting them just because I found the first volume interesting. But, no, this is not an accurate interpretation of the characters at all. Wonder Woman seems to have two motivations: Impose Amazonian order on humanity like she always wanted and fulfill her unrequited love for Superman.

[Robanker]

I don’t think you guys are getting how Elseworlds stories work. He’s not supposed to be completely in character with the main universe Superman. That’s the entire point.

No, the entire point is to tell stories in different contexts. If that context is "here's a character being exactly not that character," well that's a premise I don't care about. It's like an elseworlds story where Batman is an unrepentant child molester. Hard pass.

Been reading Elseworlds for a long time. Western JLA? Sign me up. World without Superman? I'm game. Superman landing in an alternate country during the cold war? Sure. Fascist Superman? We saw that in Red Son.

More importantly, Elseworlds rarely continue past their initial salvo. For every Red Rain, you get Speeding Bullets. This isn't really an Elseworlds anymore. It's in the same vein as Batman Beyond. It has crossovers, it's got a video game. Injustice is a line now. One that is predicated on Superman behaving entirely antithetical to who he is as a character. And it isn't just him.

Sorry bud, but "I don't think you get it" isn't a fair argument here. Most of us do, in fact, get the point. We just vehemently disagree with the concept by virtue of having followed the character for over a decade. I'll never really appreciate an interpretation of this character, someone who has been toppling fascists and power-abusing monsters from the beginning, Goosestepping with the worst of them.

I'm far from the authority on Superman on these boards or elsewhere, but I'm firmly against "this character but evil" interpretations because they're lazy pretty much every time.

[Talon1load]

An Elseworlds story is just that, a story on a different world so this is very much that. Red Rain had 2 sequels I believe so it didn’t just end. A lot of the Esleworlds characters have shown up in other places. Go back and read the Countdown series. The entire point is to show your favorite characters differently. This isn’t supposed to be the perfect Superman that everyone loves but a version that has been twisted by tragedy. Of course he’s out of character, he’s been changed by the things he’s seen and done. I get it, you don’t like it but that doesn’t take away from the fact that it was a pretty good series that lasted for 5 years. It most have done well enough and been liked by people to have gone that long. It’s popularity is also the reason it had cross overs and it didn’t really get a video game because it was based off of said game but still. It was a popular concept that many have enjoyed. Thinking that every Elseworlds or alternate universe or whatever you want to call it character has to be represented the same is a boring concept and that’s why they do things like this. That’s why I said that you don’t seem to get the point of it. From what you wrote, I still don’t think you get it but that’s my opinion. We don’t have to agree.

[Robanker]

An Elseworlds story is just that, a story on a different world so this is very much that. Red Rain had 2 sequels I believe so it didn’t just end. A lot of the Esleworlds characters have shown up in other places. Go back and read the Countdown series. The entire point is to show your favorite characters differently. This isn’t supposed to be the perfect Superman that everyone loves but a version that has been twisted by tragedy. Of course he’s out of character, he’s been changed by the things he’s seen and done. I get it, you don’t like it but that doesn’t take away from the fact that it was a pretty good series that lasted for 5 years. It most have done well enough and been liked by people to have gone that long. It’s popularity is also the reason it had cross overs and it didn’t really get a video game because it was based off of said game but still. It was a popular concept that many have enjoyed. Thinking that every Elseworlds or alternate universe or whatever you want to call it character has to be represented the same is a boring concept and that’s why they do things like this. That’s why I said that you don’t seem to get the point of it. From what you wrote, I still don’t think you get it but that’s my opinion. We don’t have to agree.

Hence why I said "for every Red Rain," I'm noting it's an outlier.

Countdown isn't exactly an example of good storytelling and, quite frankly, not a good representation of multiversal characters returning or the concept as a whole.

I absolutely understand what they're going for, but I fundamentally don't believe in the concept. Yes, he's twisted by tragedy, but I don't believe that tragedy would twist him and certainly not that far.

Since when did I say each Elseworlds has to be the same concept? I specifically noted three examples where the universe itself had changed or the character himself did. If anything, it seems you're misunderstanding my and every fan who hates Injustice. We don't feel it properly addresses a Superman gone bad and instead portrays Superman as someone who, given a set chain of events, could go evil. It starts in what is essentially proper continuity. All of Injustice is predicated on lazy writing to get Superman to make a heel turn and, given his characterization as not too dissimilar from main Superman until the Metropolis incident, would never go as far as Injustice!Supes does even after his Heel turn. He's portrayed as someone who, once he went bad, stopped caring about anything he ever stood for. He's not Superman. Red Son is a far superior interpretation of a Superman gone rogue.

I can acknowledge that it appeals to some. I know a lot of people who think of Superman more as a supporting character to Batman or someone who they like when he joins their books, but don't care to read his. A lot of them like Injustice. I actually quite enjoy the character and everything he stands for. Injustice is essentially a Superman for people who don't like Superman. Bully for them.

You can understand something and completely disagree with it. I get Injustice. I bought the entire run for my girlfriend because she enjoyed it for a while (the more she grew to like Superman, the more she grew to dislike Injustice and now hates that interpretation of him, which surprised me given how strongly she responded at first) and read the first year. I get the book fine. The entire plot is predicated on "what if Superman gave in on his moral code," which is essentially "what if Batman butchered Alfred, Robin and the rest of his supporting cast?" Something they'd never do without ceasing to be the very character they are. It's a violation of the character's core ethos.

Wasn't that the point of "The Batman Who Laughs?" That TBWL (who sucks, frankly) is an absolutely twisted, wrong version of Batman and is pit against the primary Batman to explore the difference between them? This doesn't work in Injustice because while you get The Superman that Enslaves, he's pit against Batman to virtue signal Bruce at Clark's expense.

That can provide interesting situations for other characters, certainly, but at it's core is a terrible decision for the character being assassinated to substantiate the plot. Injustice is popular, sure. So was Aquaman and I would argue Shazam was a stronger film. You like Injustice. I'm glad for you, I really am. I just don't care for poor or lazy writing and when the entire universe hinges on it, there's no way for me to ignore it long enough to enjoy the book. Every so often, it draws attention back to that divergent point and ruins the experience.

I'm sorry if you still genuinely feel I don't get it. Nothing will convince you otherwise because you seem to be equating your own enjoyment with quality. You're characterizing my argument as someone who believes there's a set way to handle Elseworlds and I simply don't agree. I just don't think Elseworlds mean you should be lazy to prop up one character at another's expense so transparently as Injustice. Am I saying it's not devoid of quality moments? Absolutely not. I've seen scans posted on Reddit that are wonderful. That doesn't change the entire house of cards is built on a flimsy foundation. I simply do not believe the core premise. It's why I don't care for The Purge movies. I can't buy into a world where parents voted in a night where their children could be raped, murdered and so on. Sure, that's the premise, but I can't get in on the ground level so I don't. Cool for others who can, I've heard some of those are pretty good.

I think I've expressed my derision with evil counterparts enough on this thread and certainly Injustice, so I'll bow out and prevent derailing the conversation further.

Keep reading what you enjoy and don't let anyone tell you otherwise, man. At the end of the day, it's entertainment so read what you like.

[Vakanai]

I have to admit to a very petty and childish pleasure at Brightburn not doing so well apparently. Because my God am I sick of the Evil Supermen.

It's not doing well? That sucks, it's a good film. And again, it's a ripoff, not really Superman, it doesn't ruin the Superman brand anymore than say Gamera could ruin Godzilla or Green Arrow could ruin Batman (true you admitted and recognize it's petty and childish, but still...).

[Jackalope89]

The comics probably aren't that popular. In fact, I think they cut Injustice 2 comics short because nobody was buying them. I started collecting them just because I found the first volume interesting. But, no, this is not an accurate interpretation of the characters at all. Wonder Woman seems to have two motivations: Impose Amazonian order on humanity like she always wanted and fulfill her unrequited love for Superman.

I followed the last arc of Injustice 2, solely because of Lobo.

It was nice to follow a character in that series that I knew couldn't be randomly killed off. Even when he was randomly sliced in half, he was only inconvenienced.

[Jon Clark]

I don’t think you guys are getting how Elseworlds stories work. He’s not supposed to be completely in character with the main universe Superman. That’s the entire point.

That only works when it goes both ways, though. If the Superman in Injustice isn't bound by the characterization in Superman #1000, then no one should use anything from Injustice as an example of Superman outside of that series/game.

But most casual fans tend to just view any presentation of a character be it comic, TV, video-game, Elseworld, movie, etc as equally valid. So the whole idea of who Superman is boils down to the ideas they liked most. If an Elseworlds tale had Superman's powers affected by whether he was id direct sunlight, then in their mind that limit is as valid as a hundred issues where Superman is just as powerful in a dark cave as he is in a sunny field. And if necessary they will be joined by someone who saw that idea in a single episode of Lois & Clark, a Batman fan, someone using a panel with one of Marvel's Pseudo-Sipermen, and a guy using Science and Superheroes in arguing that Superman's powers work that way. And a dozen posters claiming that all views are equally valid, DC can write a story based on this definition, and that a good story trumps consistency anyhow.

In short, every evil Superman story; Elseworld, pastiche, or the end result of a precise series of events; is going to be used to argue against Superman as a guy with strong morals that he won't violate.

[Vakanai]

That only works when it goes both ways, though. If the Superman in Injustice isn't bound by the characterization in Superman #1000, then no one should use anything from Injustice as an example of Superman outside of that series/game.

But most casual fans tend to just view any presentation of a character be it comic, TV, video-game, Elseworld, movie, etc as equally valid. So the whole idea of who Superman is boils down to the ideas they liked most. If an Elseworlds tale had Superman's powers affected by whether he was id direct sunlight, then in their mind that limit is as valid as a hundred issues where Superman is just as powerful in a dark cave as he is in a sunny field. And if necessary they will be joined by someone who saw that idea in a single episode of Lois & Clark, a Batman fan, someone using a panel with one of Marvel's Pseudo-Sipermen, and a guy using Science and Superheroes in arguing that Superman's powers work that way. And a dozen posters claiming that all views are equally valid, DC can write a story based on this definition, and that a good story trumps consistency anyhow.

In short, every evil Superman story; Elseworld, pastiche, or the end result of a precise series of events; is going to be used to argue against Superman as a guy with strong morals that he won't violate.

So? People are going to hate what they hate or love what they love, and fanboy argue over stupid crap, no matter what anyone does. And they don't typically buy most material anyways. Like, the Injustice fans just buy Injustice games. Doesn't affect the comics, or cartoons, or films. Let the fans of a version have their version, just as long as the real deal continues being the hero we all know, and DC/WB does more to push heroic Superman, what does it matter? We shouldn't be saying "Stop doing evil Superman elseworlds," we should be saying, "Don't forget to do more heroic Superman."

[Jon Clark]

So? People are going to hate what they hate or love what they love, and fanboy argue over stupid crap, no matter what anyone does. And they don't typically buy most material anyways. Like, the Injustice fans just buy Injustice games. Doesn't affect the comics, or cartoons, or films. Let the fans of a version have their version, just as long as the real deal continues being the hero we all know, and DC/WB does more to push heroic Superman, what does it matter? We shouldn't be saying "Stop doing evil Superman elseworlds," we should be saying, "Don't forget to do more heroic Superman."

It matters because perception shapes reality.

The Onjustice game sold well enough for DC to think a comic book based on the game had an audience.

DKR convinced them that Batman worked best as an anti-social jerk who could do anything and who knew everything. The comic didn'y necessarily present that, but people took Bruce spending two decades working on enough green-K to form a single arrowhead and came away with the idea Batman can devise a way to defeat Superman on the spur of the moment.

And enough evil Superman stories that sell well convinces them to tell more of those stories, while ignoring the heroic Superman because they don't see sales figures from all those heroic Superman stories they aren't writing. One bad movie does more damage to the character than a dozen well written issues can repair- because more people see that movie and come away believing that is the "real" Superman.

[Vakanai]

It matters because perception shapes reality.

The Onjustice game sold well enough for DC to think a comic book based on the game had an audience.

DKR convinced them that Batman worked best as an anti-social jerk who could do anything and who knew everything. The comic didn'y necessarily present that, but people took Bruce spending two decades working on enough green-K to form a single arrowhead and came away with the idea Batman can devise a way to defeat Superman on the spur of the moment.

And enough evil Superman stories that sell well convinces them to tell more of those stories, while ignoring the heroic Superman because they don't see sales figures from all those heroic Superman stories they aren't writing. One bad movie does more damage to the character than a dozen well written issues can repair- because more people see that movie and come away believing that is the "real" Superman.

And the solution to that perception problem is to include more heroic Superman stuff. For every Injustice or Red Son pull out an All Star or Death and Reign of the Supermen. They aren't ignoring heroic Superman, heck, there hasn't been one villainous Superman in film yet. Red Son would be the first. One bad Superman against all the good Superman depictions aren't going to irreparably change perception forever. One successful game franchise with a bad Superman and everybody loses their minds. Superman will be okay. Most depictions are heroic, he isn't in such a fragile position that a few out of continuity yet popular things will vilify him forever.

[theoneandonly]

the concept of evil supermen says that people love to trash Superman and all he stands for by turning him eeeeevil so that they get the pleasure of watching how far they can push the concept of deranged super dickery while cocking a snook at the fans of the character.

[Talon1load]

Dude, I LOVE Superman. My sons middle name is Kal-El. My love for the character doesn’t mean I can’t enjoy a very different interpretation like in Injustice. That’s a really dumb argument and I don’t think you have anything to back it up. That’s pure fan conjecture based on your thoughts. People are fairly smart and can easily distinguish between versions of a character.

[Ra-El]

See, I was able to better take Injustice Superman in the first game because he was there as a foil with the real Superman there to show up and beat him at the end.

That is just another problem imo. In the end they brought a Superman from ma reality where Lois was still alive and Metropolis was ok, so Superman was still good. It would be much more powerful if they have brought a Superman from a reality where the Joker still acomplish his plan, but Superman remained good, I mean, maybe he kill the Joker, let the beard grow, give up on super heroics, but didn't decided to conquer the world.
The way they did on the game, they just reinforced that Superman could snap at any time, I think the game even end with Batman making some threat that if the Good Superman ever turned evil he would end him.