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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    And I do take an issue with the "I want the X-Men to be heroes." After stating that Emma's actions mean she cannot be a hero.

    So... I assume by that metric we are DQing Wolverine, Xavier, Beast, Cyclops, Jean, Bishop, and Gambit from the X-Men as well, considering some of the horrifying things they've done that should also DQ them from being "heroes". Or are we just applying it some characters, and not others?
    Yeah, but they were X-men when the writers and editors at Marvel were kids and teenagers, so they can be heroes even if they willingly kill billions of people while trying to hunt down and murder a baby or enslave a sentient life-form to train students.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    Yeah, but they were X-men when the writers and editors at Marvel were kids and teenagers, so they can be heroes even if they willingly kill billions of people while trying to hunt down and murder a baby or enslave a sentient life-form to train students.
    Regarding the last, I don't think Xavier has been framed as a hero for some time now.

    This Week's Comics: Lazarus: Risen #2, House of X #1, Wicked + Divine #44

  3. #33
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    my mans just wants to edit some avengers, let him live
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anduinel View Post
    Regarding the last, I don't think Xavier has been framed as a hero for some time now.
    Oh, I know, but Emma has certainly been much more heroic than Xavier ever since Onslaught and I don't see JDW arguing against his presence on the team.

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    Oh, I know, but Emma has certainly been much more heroic than Xavier ever since Onslaught and I don't see JDW arguing against his presence on the team.
    Because there aren't any Xavier stans pestering him with questions. But he is clearly on the team for Hickman's run so...
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Because there aren't any Xavier stans pestering him with questions. But he is clearly on the team for Hickman's run so...
    Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if the minis end with Xavier moving away and/or getting his ass kicked off the team, if he's even there to begin with- remember the event is essentially dealing with consequences that Xavier did a long time ago.

    And Xavier is in a reverse situation than Emma because I don't think there's too much people wanting him again in the X-men, but many Marvel would love that due to movie synergy and/or childhood nostalgia.

  7. #37
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    On one hand, I get the idea that she might be might be more interesting operating away from the X-Men, but on the other hand, that makes me realize that wow, the X-Men are really uninteresting now and I'd rather just read about her.
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  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    On one hand, I get the idea that she might be might be more interesting operating away from the X-Men, but on the other hand, that makes me realize that wow, the X-Men are really uninteresting now and I'd rather just read about her.
    I'd love a solo about Emma fighting for mutantkind in her own way. But you know sooner or later they'd have to have her Tragically Go Too Far in order to shore up the X-Men's position in the franchise.

    This Week's Comics: Lazarus: Risen #2, House of X #1, Wicked + Divine #44

  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    Oh, I know, but Emma has certainly been much more heroic than Xavier ever since Onslaught and I don't see JDW arguing against his presence on the team.
    For sure Xavier won't be on the team and won't be heroic

    I own't even start with the retcons to make Emma and Scott look better

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    On one hand, I get the idea that she might be might be more interesting operating away from the X-Men, but on the other hand, that makes me realize that wow, the X-Men are really uninteresting now and I'd rather just read about her.
    LOL, good point. And, really, I don't see what is that she can do away from the X-men she can't do there. Unless the point is making her a villain again because childhood nostalgia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anduinel View Post
    I'd love a solo about Emma fighting for mutantkind in her own way. But you know sooner or later they'd have to have her Tragically Go Too Far in order to shore up the X-Men's position in the franchise.
    And it goes again- what is that she can do alone that she can't do being among the X-men?

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    For sure Xavier won't be on the team and won't be heroic

    I own't even start with the retcons to make Emma and Scott look better
    There was a retcon to make Scott "better"? That's news to me, and I imagine to most Cyclops fans.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    There was a retcon to make Scott "better"? That's news to me, and I imagine to most Cyclops fans.
    every retcon after Morrison's run

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    And I do take an issue with the "I want the X-Men to be heroes." After stating that Emma's actions mean she cannot be a hero.

    So... I assume by that metric we are DQing Wolverine, Xavier, Beast, Cyclops, Jean, Bishop, and Gambit from the X-Men as well, considering some of the horrifying things they've done that should also DQ them from being "heroes". Or are we just applying it some characters, and not others?
    He is not wrong. Maybe if X-men writers stop to think about it, the franchise wouldn't be so low now.

    but his timing is wrong, now seems like every villain can play hero and that isn't a good look

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    every retcon after Morrison's run



    He is not wrong. Maybe if X-men writers stop to think about it, the franchise wouldn't be so low now.

    but his timing is wrong, now seems like every villain can play hero and that isn't a good look
    Of course, every single decision made at Marvel from Morrison onward was done solely to make Scott look good and piss on Jean's grave. Every single one. I don't why I asked, when I knew the response already.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  14. #44
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    Of course, every single decision made at Marvel from Morrison onward was done solely to make Scott look good and piss on Jean's grave. Every single one. I don't why I asked, when I knew the response already.
    That is the only possible reason. X-men didn't gain anything making Xavier one of the villains

    But Scott gained other motivation to whine and brood

  15. #45
    Magneto-centric Rivka's Avatar
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    Okay, so these are JDW's opinions, and he said he does not impose his opinions on his creative teams. And I thought his responses regarding Emma and Magneto were less reactionary than a year ago. He did not use the word "villain." He did not use the word "antagonist." He said he thought Emma makes a great PROTAGONIST, like the lead in any story, the main character, just not as a member of the X-Men. Now I disagree with that. JDW said he sees the X-Men as "heroic" and anti-heroes and protagonists who aren't pure angels need not apply; with that I wholeheartedly disagree as well. We can list the crimes and moral turpitude of several X-Men characters who JDW considers "heroes" and full-fledged X-Men. But I was impressed that he did not call Magneto and Emma "villains" and said they make good protagonists!

    In my opinion, Magneto does not belong on the X-Men as a member of the team but that doesn't make him a "villain." So I agree with JDW there, and like I said, that is a much more open-minded attitude toward Magneto than JDW had a year ago.

    But Emma Frost has been a member of the X-Men for 20 years. If "complicated" characters can't be members of an X-Men team, then we don't have any more X-Men as a concept. They are not the same as the Avengers. Anti-heroes, characters with dark deeds in their pasts, they made up the X-Men. In fact, for the last 40 years the X-Men and Xavier in particular have made it a practice of letting people join who are on redemption arcs, or who Xavier thinks can redeem themselves. There has NEVER been a purity test to join the X-Men.

    JDW will say I'm taking his opinions out of context again. Maybe so. But since he's the Editor of all the X-Books, I hope he doesn't take it personally if fans disagree with some of his assessments and expect the books to stay faithful to a basic premise of the franchise.

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