X-Men Sunday (5/26/19)

[Rivka]

every retcon after Morrison's run



He is not wrong. Maybe if X-men writers stop to think about it, the franchise wouldn't be so low now.

but his timing is wrong, now seems like every villain can play hero and that isn't a good look

Not every "villain" is playing the hero. The X-Men are composed of all kinds of characters, many of whom have dark histories and unsavory pasts. No X-Man is a pure angel. Xavier was always creepy, predatory, secretive, manipulative, and definitely not 100% a hero. The X-Men are not dualistic. The characters aren't two-dimensional. The concept isn't binary. There is no way to divide the characters into "heroes" and "villains" just like in real-life. The characters range on a continuum. Some worse than others, some more purely heroic than others.

[salarta]

Okay, so these are JDW's opinions, and he said he does not impose his opinions on his creative teams. And I thought his responses regarding Emma and Magneto were less reactionary than a year ago. He did not use the word "villain." He did not use the word "antagonist." He said he thought Emma makes a great PROTAGONIST, like the lead in any story, the main character, just not as a member of the X-Men. Now I disagree with that. JDW said he sees the X-Men as "heroic" and anti-heroes and protagonists who aren't pure angels need not apply; with that I wholeheartedly disagree as well. We can list the crimes and moral turpitude of several X-Men characters who JDW considers "heroes" and full-fledged X-Men. But I was impressed that he did not call Magneto and Emma "villains" and said they make good protagonists!

In my opinion, Magneto does not belong on the X-Men as a member of the team but that doesn't make him a "villain." So I agree with JDW there, and like I said, that is a much more open-minded attitude toward Magneto than JDW had a year ago.

But Emma Frost has been a member of the X-Men for 20 years. If "complicated" characters can't be members of an X-Men team, then we don't have any more X-Men as a concept. They are not the same as the Avengers. Anti-heroes, characters with dark deeds in their pasts, they made up the X-Men. In fact, for the last 40 years the X-Men and Xavier in particular have made it a practice of letting people join who are on redemption arcs, or who Xavier thinks can redeem themselves. There has NEVER been a purity test to join the X-Men.

JDW will say I'm taking his opinions out of context again. Maybe so. But since he's the Editor of all the X-Books, I hope he doesn't take it personally if fans disagree with some of his assessments and expect the books to stay faithful to a basic premise of the franchise.

The "purity test" aspect of what you said is a good point, along with the franchise's history. X-Men may represent a certain heroic ideology, but that ideology doesn't have to mean "if you have ever done anything bad or do anything bad then you're disqualified forever." From what I understand, there's a certain aspirational element to the whole X-Men concept. The world isn't the way it should be, but through hard work and openness, it can become that. If my understanding is correct, then turning away "bad seeds" is antithetical to the X-Men concept. How can the (fictional) world take their claimed goal of trying to make the world better than its dark past if they refuse to help individual people better themselves and move past same on a personal level?

[spirit2011]

Not every "villain" is playing the hero. The X-Men are composed of all kinds of characters, many of whom have dark histories and unsavory pasts. No X-Man is a pure angel. Xavier was always creepy, predatory, secretive, manipulative, and definitely not 100% a hero. The X-Men are not dualistic. The characters aren't two-dimensional. The concept isn't binary. There is no way to divide the characters into "heroes" and "villains" just like in real-life. The characters range on a continuum. Some worse than others, some more purely heroic than others.

what? on real life there is definately heroes and villains, it isn't always white or black but each day is easy to see who the bad guys really are.

Public opinion will never be good to mutants if keep accepting villains. People won't feel an more secure with Magneto with the x-men.

X-men is more of a mixed francise on morals than any other, but limits would make it a better franchise

[Snoop Dogg]

magneto is a villain who can and generally should be kept out of the x-men because he has done, continues to do, and will always do very bad things because that is the point

emma frost can only be kept out of the x-men because of bad things she did in one unpopular storyline that the same editorial office couldn't be bothered to deal with and have been otherwise ignored

[jsg2295]

Which one ? if we're talking about Barbra or Stephenie no chance gambit loses. If its Cassandra she'd win.

Also who had money on divorce due to gambit cheating on her, it appears you made a safe bet and will probably be right.

Well if he does cheat on Rogue I hope its with Emma.

[spirit2011]

Well if he does cheat on Rogue I hope its with Emma.

I would pay to see kelly thompson reaction to it LOL

It's just JDW opinion, he doesn't interfere with writers pitch

[Omega Alpha]

magneto is a villain who can and generally should be kept out of the x-men because he has done, continues to do, and will always do very bad things because that is the point

emma frost can only be kept out of the x-men because of bad things she did in one unpopular storyline that the same editorial office couldn't be bothered to deal with and have been otherwise ignored

Yep. No one remembers IvX fondly (except a certain member here) and it isn't a definying event for anyone. Even the Inhumans have moved on from it. And to say Emma doesn't work in a more heroic/classic X-men type of book ignores she did in the only one of these kinds of books to be a big hit in the last decades.

[jsg2295]

Yep. No one remembers IvX fondly (except a certain member here) and it isn't a definying event for anyone. Even the Inhumans have moved on from it. And to say Emma doesn't work in a more heroic/classic X-men type of book ignores she did in the only one of these kinds of books to be a big hit in the last decades.

I believe that only one person should have to remember IvX period. I nominate you for that task.
If I never have to remember that Scott was killed by stupidly flying into a fart cloud and Emma's horrid costume at the end of the series.....combined with the infamous flight of Medusa and BB as they fly up and everyone stops to stare as they emit a nobility and regalness like pheromones as they confront the evil villian Emma.....then I am all the better for it.

[spirit2011]

magneto is a villain who can and generally should be kept out of the x-men because he has done, continues to do, and will always do very bad things because that is the point

emma frost can only be kept out of the x-men because of bad things she did in one unpopular storyline that the same editorial office couldn't be bothered to deal with and have been otherwise ignored

She did bad on secret empire, x-men blue and iVX.

It's clear she will kept falling out morally

[PsychoEFrost]

She did bad on secret empire, x-men blue and iVX.

It's clear she will kept falling out morally

You mean where she:

A) Held off Nazi Cap's Hydra regime, protecting mutantkind from him.

B) Saved Polaris's team and stopped Bastion and Miss Sinister.

C) Participated in an event that literally everyone has forgotten, except you.

So... yeah...

[spirit2011]

Yep. No one remembers IvX fondly (except a certain member here) and it isn't a definying event for anyone. Even the Inhumans have moved on from it. And to say Emma doesn't work in a more heroic/classic X-men type of book ignores she did in the only one of these kinds of books to be a big hit in the last decades.

Sure, I going to forget IvX when people freking forgive Bishop after the character assassination he suffered.

I forgot he isn't blonde and sexy. oh no

[The tall man]

I'd love a solo about Emma fighting for mutantkind in her own way. But you know sooner or later they'd have to have her Tragically Go Too Far in order to shore up the X-Men's position in the franchise.

Implying what exactly, that Emma is bigger than the x-franchise? That she is bigger and more popular than the other a-list x-men and that she has to be character assassinated to keep the others relevant? Really! Logan, Scott, Ororo, Jean, Rogue and the rest don't need Emma to shore them up and the franchise as a whole certainly doesn't need her to shore it up. Contrary to what some like to think, Emma is not the be all end all of the X-men, if the franchise can keep going without Wolverine, Cyclops, Jean and others it can continue on fine without Emma. Maybe just maybe it's Emma who needs the X-men to stay relevant.

[Omega Alpha]

Implying what exactly, that Emma is bigger than the x-franchise? That she is bigger and more popular than the other a-list x-men and that she has to be character assassinated to keep the others relevant? Really! Logan, Scott, Ororo, Jean, Rogue and the rest don't need Emma to shore them up and the franchise as a whole certainly doesn't need her to shore it up. Contrary to what some like to think, Emma is not the be all end all of the X-men, if the franchise can keep going without Wolverine, Cyclops, Jean and others it can continue on fine without Emma. Maybe just maybe it's Emma who needs the X-men to stay relevant.

No, the point is that if Emma is not in an X-men team, them pretty soon she'll go to far in a villainous/morally gray route so the X-men can look better- which is exactly what happened in IvX. Of course, no single X-men character is more important than the team.

[spirit2011]

You mean where she:

A) Held off Nazi Cap's Hydra regime, protecting mutantkind from him.

Mind wiping mutants

B) Saved Polaris's team and stopped Bastion and Miss Sinister.

After crap happneing, like Magneto killing some of these new mutants

C) Participated in an event that literally everyone has forgotten, except you.

So... yeah...

If people want to forget, it is their bias

[Omega Alpha]

Sure, I going to forget IvX when people freking forgive Bishop after the character assassination he suffered.

I forgot he isn't blonde and sexy. oh no

Bishop's trajectory, while terrible for the character, was a part of the most popular X-men crossovers in the last decades (Messiah Complex and Second Coming), and essential to the developments of Cable, Hope and Scott for years. By contrast, IvX was a horrible story that no one that doesn't have a hate boner for Emma appreciated, and has been quickly relegated to the trash bin of history.