Should Jean Grey have stayed dead after Dark Phoenix Saga?

[RachelGrey]

I'm still kind of impressed at how this poll is close to being perfectly balanced, as all things should be. I'd imagined a bigger gap would show after a few days.

I think some people are just story purists. I am kind of that way about the Lord of the Rings. I try to like Two Towers and Return of the King movies but a part of me can't help but hate them a little for diverging from the books so much. I can't think of a good reason for those divergences other than the arrogance of the writers and directors thinking that they understand the character motives and feelings better than Tolkien did.

For me Comics have always had characters coming back from the dead. Sure a few stay dead, but the majority come back at some point or other. Sure the original Gwen Stacy is dead, but now we have the popular Ghost Spider version of Gwen from an alternative universe that got super popular during the first SpiderGeddon crossover.

I like Jean Grey, I like the dynamic between Jean, Rachel, and Cable when it is properly written; and I would love to read a comic that explores that. I would love to read a comic where Jean and Emma are forced to work together on a mission because I feel like the dynamic between them is fun to read and I would love to read more of it. Heck I could read a comic where Jean and Emma co-headmistress a school just for the fun of having them argue on a regular basis.

I like Jean for herself too, I thought X-Men Red really captured her as a character. There was a lot of filler in the X-Men Red story, the Cassandra Nova thing dragged on and on and I wish they had broken the series up into some story arcs instead of having one long arc revolving around Cassandra Nova. But I loved Jean in that series.

I liked the Jean Grey series, particular the last few issues where Emma and Ghost Jean are working together. I found the Return of Jean Grey to be a bit meh, but I guess I felt like they are trying too hard to keep Phoenix as some malicious entity when I think Phoenix just feels things very intensely. Once again that wasn't Jean's fault, she was fine in that series too.

So I can understand why some of the "purists" don't want Jean back, but I prefer having her in the X-Men comics because I think she represents Xavier's dream better than Xavier himself does. I actually couldn't care less if Xavier ever comes back permanently, I would rather have Jean back as one of the core leads of the X-Men.

[Triniking1234]

So how did Marvel explain how "Phoenix" even died on the Moon if she can't?

[theoneandonly]

the same way they explained how sentry a character who can return to life almost instantly from molecular disintegration died after being dropped into the sun.

[RachelGrey]

So how did Marvel explain how "Phoenix" even died on the Moon if she can't?

She rose from her ashes. It was actually explained in Excalibur when the Phoenix explained to Jean, Xavier, Kitty, and Kurt why she bonded with Rachel and why she was preventing Rachel from fully remembering her original universe.

[FUBAR007]

So how did Marvel explain how "Phoenix" even died on the Moon if she can't?

Only her human body was destroyed. Her consciousness went to another plane of existence where she got a pep talk from an incarnation of Death. See the back-up story in Classic X-Men #43.

She then returned to Earth and tried to give Jean back the "part of her soul" she'd taken. Jean, still cocooned at the bottom of Jamaica Bay, rejected it so Phoenix ended up downloading it into Madelyne, at that point still a comatose clone in Sinister's lab. See the flashback to Madelyne's origin in Uncanny X-Men vol. 1 #241.

Jean finally took the part of her soul back when she absorbed Madelyne's consciousness in X-Factor vol. 1 #38.

In the meantime, the Phoenix Force bonded with Rachel. See the flashbacks in Excalibur vol. 1 #52.

[Triniking1234]

She rose from her ashes. It was actually explained in Excalibur when the Phoenix explained to Jean, Xavier, Kitty, and Kurt why she bonded with Rachel and why she was preventing Rachel from fully remembering her original universe.

Ugh. I had a feeling it was in Excalibur.

Thanks.

Only her human body was destroyed. Her consciousness went to another plane of existence where she got a pep talk from an incarnation of Death. See the back-up story in Classic X-Men #43.

She then returned to Earth and tried to give Jean back the "part of her soul" she'd taken. Jean, still cocooned at the bottom of Jamaica Bay, rejected it so Phoenix ended up downloading it into Madelyne, at that point still a comatose clone in Sinister's lab. See the flashback to Madelyne's origin in Uncanny X-Men vol. 1 #241.

Jean finally took the part of her soul back when she absorbed Madelyne's consciousness in X-Factor vol. 1 #38.

Oh. I didn't know about the Classic X-Men one as well.

[RachelGrey]

Ugh. I had a feeling it was in Excalibur.

Thanks.

Yeah the Excalibur issue also agrees with FUBAR007's post. Because in that issue they showed the Phoenix sending the soul fragment back to Jean before the Phoenix followed Rachel into the 811 universe to find out where Rachel came from and how it was possible that Jean and Scott had a daughter.

[lancer]

The stories in question are Fantastic Four vol. 1 #286 (Byrne's version) and Classic X-Men vol. 1 #8.2 (Claremont's version). The former makes it clear Phoenix copied Jean; the latter--which is better written IMO--leaves it more up to reader interpretation. Both are technically canon, so later creative teams and readers can pick which one they prefer and go with that.

It wasn't just Claremont vs Byrne, though The writers who handled Jean on a monthly basis, in X FACTOR, repeatedly and explicitly stated that Jean wasn't Phoenix. It's Claremont who was writing his own version that noone else was playing along with. Sort of like Jean/Logan. He's doing it and noone else is doing. Well, Simonson wrote the XTINCTION AGENDA issue where they kiss, but that was a crossover that Claremont was involved in. Other than that, she prety much didn't touch it.

Anyway, as the person you quoted stated, CLASSIC 8's version defeats the purpose of the retcon. It's stated in that comic that a tiny spark was left behind in the old body. The rest is in the new body-Phoenix. How does that solve culpabilty for D'bari.

Again, though, this is one writer. So, by his version, a tiny spark of lifefoce functioned as Jean Grey for the first 38 issues of X FACTOR. It's just not how X FACTOR played it Did Jean Gey, once in those 38 issues, ever speak of feeling less than whole or complete. For that matter, post X FACTOR 38, did she ever speak of now feeling whole and complete? That is simply not how it was presented.
It's not Jean is reincoporating back into herself parts that were her to begin with. It played as Jean has been invaded by 2 outside psyches. And that is how it is portrayed for 10 plus issues until the end of JUDGEMENT WARS when Jean expunges them. She retains the memories like a faded dream. The description was something like that.

As you said, personal interpretation comes into it. I think I said this a while back. My interpetation was something like TAS. At the end of Dark Phoenix, all the X Men have to sacrifice some lifeforce to bring Jean back to life. Well, I don't think she's Jean/Scott/Logan/Storm/etc. after that. She's Jean. And what the other X Men gave up to revive her doesn't make them any less than who they were before. Scott is still Scott, etc.,etc.

That is my interpretation of how X FACTOR, not in a single backup story, but on a month in month out basis, presented it. A piece of Jean's lifeforce is up there, but she's not in the driver's seat, and is not responsible for all those deaths.

Mind you, I was pro retcon. If you were bringing Jean back, anyway And I wanted Jean back Now, I'm speaking to how I felt when these stories came out. Later writers could change it back and Jean was Phoenix. You ask me, that was sort of how Morrison was portraying it. But like you said, if you want to believe one or the other, there is something that's been printed that will support your position.

This poll has a lot more yes votes than I would have expected. Can't say I'm happy to see that, but people feel the way they feel.

[WebLurker]

I think some people are just story purists. I am kind of that way about the Lord of the Rings. I try to like Two Towers and Return of the King movies but a part of me can't help but hate them a little for diverging from the books so much. I can't think of a good reason for those divergences other than the arrogance of the writers and directors thinking that they understand the character motives and feelings better than Tolkien did.

Any time something is adapted into another medium, changes have to be made to better fit the new art form. For example, Tolkien's long poetry works well on the printed page, but would be a slog onscreen. When it comes to alterations of stuff like characters and whatnot, I think the best way to look at it is that the the movie is another person(s)' take on the original material (like a cover of a song), so they are within their rights to do things differently.

Wouldn't rag on anyone having something they can't abide changes of; I can think of plenty of books, TV shows, or other stuff that I do not care to see reimagined.