How do you see the Amazons/Diana/Hippolyta?

[Masterff]

I watched this Movie:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Woman_(2009_film)

And this is something what I always HATED about Wonder Woman/Hippolyta and Amazons in General.

They always claim to be PERFECT,living a peacefull live etc., BUT I always thougt that its only Propaganda etc.

In Fact I think Persephone was right that in closing Themyscira down she took the chance away from the Amazons to fall in love with men, became children etc.
AND Hippolyta in Fact was the one who wanted to get a daughter and so she sculptured Diana...

[kjn]

That movie was not particularly good…

I view the Amazons as nymphs of civilisation. They are supposed to live in a society that is either utopic or near enough from our horizon, and to me it is an essential part of Diana's background that she comes from what is essentially a happy, healthy, long-term functional all-women village. She is who she is because of the Amazons, not in spite of them.

Sadly, writers either decide to make the Amazons "edgy" or morally questionably (looking at Azzarello and Morrison), or they don't spend enough time showing us the Amazon society. To me, the scene with kid Diana in the 2017 movie was central in establishing Themyscira: it showed a happy, loving, and functional village that have many other concerns and interests than war.

[Masterff]

That movie was not particularly good…

I view the Amazons as nymphs of civilisation. They are supposed to live in a society that is either utopic or near enough from our horizon, and to me it is an essential part of Diana's background that she comes from what is essentially a happy, healthy, long-term functional all-women village. She is who she is because of the Amazons, not in spite of them.

Sadly, writers either decide to make the Amazons "edgy" or morally questionably (looking at Azzarello and Morrison), or they don't spend enough time showing us the Amazon society. To me, the scene with kid Diana in the 2017 movie was central in establishing Themyscira: it showed a happy, loving, and functional village that have many other concerns and interests than war.

I personally like more the edgy Version, because I NEVER liked the arrogance of Diana...I also find the idea of shutting Themyscira down questionable, if one Amazon wish to leave the Island she should be able to do it...

[Gurz]

Rebels. Rebeling against Patriachy... They are rutless headstrong rebel warriors in men's world against men.

[SiegePerilous02]

I personally like more the edgy Version, because I NEVER liked the arrogance of Diana...I also find the idea of shutting Themyscira down questionable, if one Amazon wish to leave the Island she should be able to do it...

Diana's never been that arrogant, at least not when written by people who understand her. The Amazons referring to themselves and their world as being perfect is not something that really existed until Azzarello thought it up to justify "smearing dirt" on them to make them "interesting."

I also don't think the Amazons have ever been forbidden from leaving. It's just that they didn't want to leave due to how badly the outside world burned them before. Diana is the first one who is really restless and wants to see the rest of the world. They would also lose their immortality if they left, and I guess they just decided there weren't enough positives to leaving vs. staying.

[WonderScott]

I've never found Diana arrogant, when written properly. She's delivered to us to change the world through love, understanding, and challenging the status quo when it's unequal, unjust, and unempathetic. Try to gaslight her and it's going to backfire on you and you'll get burned.

She's an imperfect, yet savior character that many are uncomfortable with because she's a woman.

I always think (my view) of Themyscira as a utopia and paradise that developed and figured itself out more easily without men, but not necessarily in spite of men. Despite that being how the Amazons first founded Paradise Island, after their treatment by Heracles and Theseus. Men and their baggage just weren't there to contend with, especially after the Amazons had had such a disastrous last experience with them before they bounced to the island.

Granted it's a fine distinction and where some of the necessary drama of the situation and Diana's life comes into play for interesting stories, but the Amazons at their best are shown as wise enough to know that they have to teach and influence Patriarch's World to achieve the same kind of "paradise" with men and women who have developed in a very different society with very different constraints from a very different history.

I liked the animated film and the "flavors" it gave amongst the different Amazons and the realities and sacrifices and effects of their immortal lives on their psyches. I'm down with Themyscira being a paradise, but that doesn't always make it perfect. That'd be boring, especially when the challenges of interacting with Man's World challenges the Amazons' resolve.

[kjn]

In a way, the Amazons suffer from constant misogynistic attacks and patterns of thoughts, similar to the way many female characters are accused of being Mary Sues.

But I think there are worldbuilding issues with the classic depiction of the Amazons, as done by Marston and followed by most later writers. It pushes a very binary worldview of the Greek gods, and it reduces the story of the Amazons into things that are done to them (by men) and things they are told to do (by Aphrodite): they are not given much agency.

When Pérez then created the Bana-Mighdall—and a hidden second Amazon group is a great idea—he built on that foundation, and thus he created one group of peace-loving benevolent Amazons and one group of traumatised violent man-hating Amazons. And the first group ended up that way because they followed the instructions from the gods, and the other because they chose not to.

As a humanist and as someone who has read more than a fair bit of ancient mythology (mostly Norse and Greek, but a smattering of other stuff as well), this has never sat well with me. The Greek gods are powerful and knowledgable, but they are also quarrelsome, vain, prideful, and quick to anger. More archetypes than good models of moral or ethical behaviour.

If I were to revisit the Amazon backstory, I'd look into ways that the goddesses failed the Amazons at least as much as the Amazons failed the goddesses, and particularly that the split between Themyscira and the Bana-Mighdall were not a choice between obeying and not obeying the gods, but between two different good and necessary missions that brought heavy costs and burdens to both groups.

[Gaelforce]

Despite a number of writers treating them as such, I've never seen the Amazons as perfect *or* as man-haters.

I saw them as wise, intelligent women who were beaten, enslaved and raped, and many of them murdered. So rather than live a life constantly having to physically defend themselves at every turn, they chose solitude so they could live in peace. It's odd how one of the things people universally wish for is 'peace on earth,' but when a society of women in a fictional world pull it off, they're mocked and ridiculed for it.

Did they have their differences? Of course they did, but what set them apart from man's world is that they didn't kill each other over those differences.

Not perfection. Peace. A life where they weren't abused by men and could learn and grow as they chose to and not because someone forced them to.

They learned the art of combat to defend themselves, but also became artists, scientists, farmers...whatever they wanted to be.

Pretty awesome in my book

[Masterff]

Despite a number of writers treating them as such, I've never seen the Amazons as perfect *or* as man-haters.

I saw them as wise, intelligent women who were beaten, enslaved and raped, and many of them murdered. So rather than live a life constantly having to physically defend themselves at every turn, they chose solitude so they could live in peace. It's odd how one of the things people universally wish for is 'peace on earth,' but when a society of women in a fictional world pull it off, they're mocked and ridiculed for it.

Did they have their differences? Of course they did, but what set them apart from man's world is that they didn't kill each other over those differences.

Not perfection. Peace. A life where they weren't abused by men and could learn and grow as they chose to and not because someone forced them to.

They learned the art of combat to defend themselves, but also became artists, scientists, farmers...whatever they wanted to be.

Pretty awesome in my book

That has nothing to do with mockery etc. I wouldnt have ANY problems with that, BUT my problem is that OFTEN they seem to be very sexistic in confront to men.
Maybe its also because of her heritage, because I have the same problems with Aquaman, who its also a kind of arrogant guy in the Comics...


This inner-monologue of Power Girl in NEW52 says it quite perfectly..
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forum...-woman-752464/

[Agent Z]

That has nothing to do with mockery etc. I wouldnt have ANY problems with that, BUT my problem is that OFTEN they seem to be very sexistic in confront to men.
Maybe its also because of her heritage, because I have the same problems with Aquaman, who its also a kind of arrogant guy in the Comics...


This inner-monologue of Power Girl in NEW52 says it quite perfectly..
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forum...-woman-752464/

1) Those images aren't from New 52.

2) Power Girl is mind controlled in those images.

Aquaman isn't usually arrogant in the comics either so don't know which ones you read.

[Masterff]

1) Those images aren't from New 52.

2) Power Girl is mind controlled in those images.

Aquaman isn't usually arrogant in the comics either so don't know which ones you read.

1.) ok, it makes no difference, but yes costumes are different.

2.) Ok, still fits with what I am thinking about Wonder Woman and I dont know if the first sentences come out of Power Girls head or if she says it because being mind-controlled..

[AmiMizuno]

The fact all the women have been abuse by men does have enough of a reason why they dislike men. Many were sold into slavery and physically abused. Since in most versions Diana is the only child she is somewhat going to see that. You can fix this. Why not let any outside person go on the Island.

[WonderScott]

In a way, the Amazons suffer from constant misogynistic attacks and patterns of thoughts, similar to the way many female characters are accused of being Mary Sues.

But I think there are worldbuilding issues with the classic depiction of the Amazons, as done by Marston and followed by most later writers. It pushes a very binary worldview of the Greek gods, and it reduces the story of the Amazons into things that are done to them (by men) and things they are told to do (by Aphrodite): they are not given much agency.

When Pérez then created the Bana-Mighdall—and a hidden second Amazon group is a great idea—he built on that foundation, and thus he created one group of peace-loving benevolent Amazons and one group of traumatised violent man-hating Amazons. And the first group ended up that way because they followed the instructions from the gods, and the other because they chose not to.

As a humanist and as someone who has read more than a fair bit of ancient mythology (mostly Norse and Greek, but a smattering of other stuff as well), this has never sat well with me. The Greek gods are powerful and knowledgable, but they are also quarrelsome, vain, prideful, and quick to anger. More archetypes than good models of moral or ethical behaviour.

If I were to revisit the Amazon backstory, I'd look into ways that the goddesses failed the Amazons at least as much as the Amazons failed the goddesses, and particularly that the split between Themyscira and the Bana-Mighdall were not a choice between obeying and not obeying the gods, but between two different good and necessary missions that brought heavy costs and burdens to both groups.

The nature of the gods from a classical sense and depiction is a very important point kjn. It's definitely been something I've been considering more as I develop my WW perspective and storytelling ideas. In a sense, it's interesting that in Marston's Wonder Woman, he had them mainly devoted to and taking cues from Aphrodite, with a side of Athena, versus the entire pantheon, like Perez did.

Your point of stepping away from the binary of the gods is certainly playing out in GWW's run and it's one of the most interesting aspects of her run to me so far. Seeing Aphrodite live up to and deal with her mistakes and their effect on others has been intriguing.

[WonderScott]

Despite a number of writers treating them as such, I've never seen the Amazons as perfect *or* as man-haters.

I saw them as wise, intelligent women who were beaten, enslaved and raped, and many of them murdered. So rather than live a life constantly having to physically defend themselves at every turn, they chose solitude so they could live in peace. It's odd how one of the things people universally wish for is 'peace on earth,' but when a society of women in a fictional world pull it off, they're mocked and ridiculed for it.

Did they have their differences? Of course they did, but what set them apart from man's world is that they didn't kill each other over those differences.

Not perfection. Peace. A life where they weren't abused by men and could learn and grow as they chose to and not because someone forced them to.

They learned the art of combat to defend themselves, but also became artists, scientists, farmers...whatever they wanted to be.

Pretty awesome in my book

QFT. I don't think you can separate their experience in Man's World when it comes to the how and why they developed their society. It's much deeper than we reject men and therefore men are evil.

[kjn]

One thread for the Amazon pre-Themyscira history I'm toying with is that the Amazons before they were conquered had several missions from the goddesses (and maybe a single god as well). To protect Hell's Gate (or similar), to preserve secret knowledge and lore, to teach mankind civilisation and its skills (agriculture, animal husbandry, law, medicine, and so on), and probably a few more as fits.

But after they freed themselves, the split wasn't between one group who followed the orders from the good (and renounced violence, becoming Good Amazons) and those who did no (and wanted revenge, becoming evil man-hating Amazons), but because the goddesses gave the Amazons a choice: to continue to guard Hell's Gate and preserve secret knowledge, or to continue with the mission to teach and learn in Man's World. Maybe with not only a lot of men angry at them, but Zeus as well.

Now, suddenly the origin of the Bana-Mighdall ends up being a lot more noble and admirable, and all the Amazons get a little more agency.