Damian Wayne and Deathstroke Archrivals ?

[Zaresh]

No no no I get I’ve been a fan of robins since I was a child. And he’s been dropkicking grown men for decades
I’m not gonna look up and post pictures of kids, even child gymnast have more strength then grown adults, combine that with flexibility and martial arts training robin is not so impossible

Robin is one off the least impossible characters in DC, my nothing is broken for me in the story with their combat.

Oh, ok. I can't speak about the combat, really, because, well, I haven't watch it. But I get why someone would think it's too much. It has happened to me before in several movies. It's the point at with I go and say "come on*! What else?" Even in fantasy or sci fi flicks with crazy things happening in them.

[dietrich]

Neither of you both seem to get my point.

[b]There's unrealistic stuff in comics, and then, there's internal logic to the narrative and expectations that the readers or the audience hold.
The first one is a given in cape comics: they're not realistic, in any sense.


The second and third point is what breaks immersion in every piece of fictional work, included cape comics.

If you give the reader or the watcher a set of internal rules, about what they should expect and what they shouldn't, a tone to the story mood, and a set of parameters between which the story and its setting runs, then the audience, the reader, whoever lives that story in their heads, gets a set of expectations. If they break that given set of narrative laws, previous guides and the like, those expectations are not met and the illusion of the immersion is broken.

Correct. Which is why Robin's 1st comic ever set the narrative law and internal rules by having him single handedly take down 4 armed men. Thus letting readers know what to expect.

Those have the parameters for over 80 years now.

Detective comics #38 Dick Grayson's Secret origins

[Zaresh]

Correct. Which is why Robin's 1st comic ever set the narrative law and readers expectation by having him single handedly take down 4 armed men.

That is what readers were told to expect and that's what the parameters have been for over 80 years.

Detective comics #38 Dick Grayson's Secret origins

Are you comparing comic books from 80 years ago with comics from the last 30 years or so?
Because I don't think expectations then and expectations now are the same. Or the tone, or even the audience they were aimed to, at least for comic books. Cartoons are a different thing: they're still aimed to pre-teens and teens mostly.

Notice, that I think, that these comics were a clear power fantasy for kids back then.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Deathstroke started out as a Titans villian so it fits. He works as an evil Batman so its carthatic pitting a Robin against him. As a kid I thought he was Robin's father when i watched the cartoon. Reading Robin 2021, I feel like Respawn could be Damian's new rival so making him Grant or one of deathstroke's kids would work better.

[dietrich]

Are you comparing comic books from 80 years ago with comics from the last 30 years or so?
Because I don't think expectations then and expectations now are the same. Or the tone, or even the audience they were aimed to, at least for comic books. Cartoons are a different thing: they're still aimed to pre-teens and teens mostly.

Notice, that I think, that these comics were a clear power fantasy for kids back then.

Yes I am comparing them and please stop moving the goal post.

Expectations aren't the same. If anything creators have been pushing the envelpe so far that todays audiences expect even more outlandish acts.

When superman came out the idea of a man who can leap tall buildings was mind blowing till another comics company upped the ante by creating a hero who can fly.

Now Flying superheroes are the norm while leaping tall buildings is a joke.

So yeah expectations change however in this case as I've tried to illustrate not always in the direction you suggest.

[dietrich]

Deathstroke started out as a Titans villian so it fits. He works as an evil Batman so its carthatic pitting a Robin against him. As a kid I thought he was Robin's father when i watched the cartoon. Reading Robin 2021, I feel like Respawn could be Damian's new rival so making him Grant or one of deathstroke's kids would work better.

Did you see the last issue of Priest's run on Deathstroke? He seems to be of the same mind as your younger self. Lol.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Did you see the last issue of Priest's run on Deathstroke? He seems to be of the same mind as your younger self. Lol.

Where Deathstroke believed he was Damian’s birth father? I forgot how it ended.

[Zaresh]

Yes I am comparing them and please stop moving the goal post.

What does that even mean. This is the second time I see some of you guys saying this sentence in a discussion.

Expectations aren't the same. If anything creators have been pushing the envelpe so far that todays audiences expect even more outlandish acts.

When superman came out the idea of a man who can leap tall buildings was mind blowing till another comics company upped the ante by creating a hero who can fly.

Now Flying superheroes are the norm while leaping tall buildings is a joke.

So yeah expectations change however in this case as I've tried to illustrate not always in the direction you suggest.

Superman being all powered was a power fantasy aimed to kids. Nowadays, Superman is a drama and action oriented comic book than more often than not aims for way higher expectations that just being a power fantasy in which the hero saves the day with some great superpowers. Also, it's aimed mostly to older teens, tweens and more mature readers.
The comics, I mean. Cartoons are different. And that was a cartoon movie, right? So I guess it still applies if you're aware of it and watch it with fair expectations. It's withing expectations that Damian would do that, for someone who's used to cartoons. I don't mean as lessing the movie, just in case: I love animated movies, even if I didn't see this particular one. But cartoons are often aimed for general, younger audience and sometimes for kids too. Teen Titans Go is an example. Young Justice, too. But then you get the Harley Queen cartoon that's definitely mature audience aimed. And expectations there are different from everything else that I mentioned because of the rule of cool, the one that Millar also uses. That "rule" is a suspension breaker for a lot of people.

Nowadays they do expect Batman to win over Darkseid. Or, well, I guess the Batgod's fans expect him to do so (a lot other think it's way, way over his skillset). But they also expect Bruce to be hurt when he falls a tall buiding without grapping to save his life. This aplies to Tim, Dick and any other bat. At least, to some readers. Which is what happened initially. The tone is different than when naive children were the main audience of these comics, because kids don't overthink consequences of actions. And expectations too, that they need to meet, as we discussed. Because more mature readers (on a certain mindset, with certain expectations about what they're reading) expect things to, for example, carry consequences. Or expect a kid to not being able to push a guy that weights six or eight times their weight without relying in some special skill or move in the case of that movie.

This is my last post. I think I made my points clear enough with this one and the last two posts I did. And I guess I'm boring you guys too, with all these long texts.

[dietrich]

What does that even mean. This is the second time I see some of you guys saying this sentence in a discussion.



Superman being all powered was a power fantasy aimed to kids. Nowadays, Superman is a drama and action oriented comic book than more often than not aims for way higher expectations that just being a power fantasy in which the hero saves the day with some great superpowers. Also, it's aimed mostly to older teens, tweens and more mature readers.
The comics, I mean. Cartoons are different. And that was a cartoon movie, right? So I guess it still applies if you're aware of it and watch it with fair expectations. It's withing expectations that Damian would do that, for someone who's used to cartoons. I don't mean as lessing the movie, just in case: I love animated movies, even if I didn't see this particular one. But cartoons are often aimed for general, younger audience and sometimes for kids too. Teen Titans Go is an example. Young Justice, too. But then you get the Harley Queen cartoon that's definitely mature audience aimed. And expectations there are different from everything else that I mentioned because of the rule of cool, the one that Millar also uses. That "rule" is a suspension breaker for a lot of people.

Nowadays they do expect Batman to win over Darkseid. Or, well, I guess the Batgod's fans expect him to do so (a lot other think it's way, way over his skillset). But they also expect Bruce to be hurt when he falls a tall buiding without grapping to save his life. This aplies to Tim, Dick and any other bat. At least, to some readers. Which is what happened initially. The tone is different than when naive children were the main audience of these comics, because kids don't overthink consequences of actions. And expectations too, that they need to meet, as we discussed. Because more mature readers (on a certain mindset, with certain expectations about what they're reading) expect things to, for example, carry consequences. Or expect a kid to not being able to push a guy that weights six or eight times their weight without relying in some special skill or move in the case of that movie.

This is my last post. I think I made my points clear enough with this one and the last two posts I did. And I guess I'm boring you guys too, with all these long texts.

Moving the goal posts

Logical fallacy

Moving the goalposts is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded. That is, after an attempt has been made to score a goal, the goalposts are moved to exclude the attempt.

Dick Grayson -1940

Jason Todd- 1983

Carrie Kelly-1986

Tim Drake-1989

Steph brown-2004

Damian Wayne-2006

The internal rules/laws and expectations have always been the same regardless of the decade.

Comics have been targeting adults since the days of denny O'neil [the editor when Jason was robin]

From Jason - Carrie -Tim -Steph - Damian. Robins still were/have been kids that take down grown men.

Out of the 5 listed Damian is the one whose background supports that he could hold his own against a grown man and that's the one people question.

The comic or animation distinction is irrelevant in this case since Damian has beaten Slade in both.

Ubu isn't on Slade's level fyi.

I don't understand how you can argue so vehemently about a fight scene and a movie you haven't even seen. Lol.

I didn't mind the long posts.

[Zaresh]

Moving the goal posts

Logical fallacy

Moving the goalposts is an informal fallacy in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded. That is, after an attempt has been made to score a goal, the goalposts are moved to exclude the attempt.

So you're dismissing my posts arguing that they don't follow logic and aim to distract discussion by tricking logic. And implying that I've denied evidence.

I don't understand how you can argue so vehemently about a fight scene and a movie you haven't even seen. Lol.

I didn't mind the long posts.

Because my point was clearing why Aahz and SixSpeedSamurai have issues buying that movie's Damian fight and not buying anything else that happens inside the DCU, like Jason coming back to live and digging out his grave. Which is the example that you used to argue their disliking of the fight in that movie. It's why I explained that their expectations were different. I guess, it's my fault that I came across as implying that's unreasonable for someone else to believe that Damian can pull that. If you have seen my posts about Jason pushing Garzonas to fall down, you would've noticed that I also have issues believing that he could do that unless Felipe was drunk. But then no one else seems to have issues with that, so that would support your point.

Glad to hear my posts don't bore you. I put a lot of effort in these discussions, they're interesting, and I love to discuss about narrative and writing and meta stuff. I'm not a professional, but I love to learn about this stuff. The suspension of belief, when it happens and when it does not, why it happens, is something that I find fun.

[dietrich]

So you're dismissing my post arguing that they don't follow logic and and aim to distract discussion by tricking logic. And implying that I'm denied evidence.



Because my point was clearing why Aahz and SixSpeedSamurai have issues buying that movie's Damian fight and not buying anything else that happens inside the DCU, like Jason coming back to live and digging out his grave. Which is the example that you used to argue their disliking of the fight in that movie. It's why I explained that their expectations were different. I guess, it's my fault that I came across as implying that's unreasonable for someone else to believe that Damian can pull that.

Glad to hear my posts don't bore you. I put a lot of effort in these discussions, they're interesting, and I love to discuss about narrative and writing and meta stuff. I'm not a professional, but I love to learn about this stuff. The suspension of belief, when it happens and when it does not, why it happens, is something that I find fun.

I think you might have gotten confused. I agreed with you that comics aren't meant to be realistic.

My 1st comment stated ALL mediums not just comics which is why you distinction between animation and comics wasn't relevant since we are talking both [Damian/TT v Slade is present in movies and comics]

This has spiralled anyway to get back on point. Comics, animated movies, animated shows, whatever, Slade regularly loses to teens.

My last reply to Aahz I said diff strokes abbreviation for different strokes for different folks which means we are all different and have different tastes and likes. So I already accepted that he felt differently to me and that's okay.

English isn't my 1st language so my wordings can be clunky and I might use old phrases.

[Zaresh]

I think you might have gotten confused. I agreed with you that comics aren't meant to be realistic.

My 1st comment stated ALL mediums not just comics which is why you distinction between animation and comics wasn't relevant since we are talking both [Damian/TT v Slade is present in movies and comics]

This has spiralled anyway to get back on point. Comics, animated movies, animated shows, whatever, Slade regularly loses to teens.

My last reply to Aahz I said diff strokes abbreviation for different strokes for different folks which means we are all different and have different tastes and likes. So I already accepted that he felt differently to me and that's okay.

English isn't my 1st language so my wordings can be clunky and I might use old phrases.

So, I missed important information. Sounds like me.
English isn't my first language either, but this time I clearly missed bits of your post. It wasn't because I didn't properly understand what you said: it was because I didn't read it properly.
So this neverending discussion has been my fault XD. I'm really sorry.

[Rac7d*]

Deathstroke and Slade have been trending for days on if he’s a teen titans villain or a DC villain