Tom King's Thoughts On Wally West

[Blue22]

I finished HiC just to finish it so Y’all dont have to

Ladies and Gentlemen: The only real heroes left after this event. The folks who read it ahead of time and saved us the trouble.

[Robanker]

Wally fans: I have the Spoilers You’ve been looking for:
spoilers:

The short version is everyone hugs it out and Wally is locked up in a justice league prison, so he lives is the only good news

end of spoilers

Can't say superhero without private jail.

[Frontier]

Can't say superhero without private jail.

It would be so hilarious in a bad way if it's called The Pipeline .

[The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper]

Can't say superhero without private jail.

It would be so hilarious in a bad way if it's called The Pipeline .

As far as I'm concerned, this is a missed oppurtunity for a buddy comedy about Wally and Piper as cellmates in Ironheights.

[Punjabi_Hitman]

Because Harley isn't a walking bomb like Wally is now? Because Harley has DC's support and they will do everything in their power to smooth over her bad parts to allow her more exposure?

DC only gives Wally exposure to hurt him. They do the opposite with Harley. There's also the fact that Harley is inherently supposed to be a little anti-hero esque. Part of her character is she is a bad person who turned good. She doesn't kill dozens of people anymore now that she's a hero. Wally is a hero who killed dozens of people and then did a lot of horrible shit after that. That's a much different circumstance. One is gaining trust, the other is betraying it.

This is what DC is going to use to define Wally going forward, in an attempt to strip him of who he was and make him, in their eyes, different enough from Barry. Wouldn't be surprised if a name change happens in the coming years.

Then eventually someone else will take Didio’s spot and Wally will become a good person again. These are comics they go in cycles. Look at Hydra Cap. That is all forgotten now.

So because she trying to do good we will forget her previous crimes, same thing will happen to Wally eventually.

[Dred]

Then eventually someone else will take Didio’s spot and Wally will become a good person again. These are comics they go in cycles. Look at Hydra Cap. That is all forgotten now.

So because she trying to do good we will forget her previous crimes, same thing will happen to Wally eventually.

People have said exactly what you've been saying for 15 years. And now, of all times, when Barry is gaining in popularity and Wally will continue to lose in popularity? It's trending worse and worse.

[Punjabi_Hitman]

People have said exactly what you've been saying for 15 years. And now, of all times, when Barry is gaining in popularity and Wally will continue to lose in popularity? It's trending worse and worse.

Are you worried about popularity or character assassination? Because the former doesn’t guarantee sales (except Batman, cuz he’s Batman, or if it’s some super high profile writer) and the latter can always be retconned/fixed.

So really constructive criticism is only good enough for venting (it never changes any of these Execs’ minds until their jobs are on the line). So to get something to change only works when you vote with your wallet.

If you think it doesn’t work then I have one name Axel Alonso.

[Dred]

Are you worried about popularity or character assassination? Because the former doesn’t guarantee sales (except Batman, cuz he’s Batman, or if it’s some super high profile writer) and the latter can always be retconned/fixed.

So really constructive criticism is only good enough for venting (it never changes any of these Execs’ minds), but to get something to change only works when you vote with your wallet.

If you think it doesn’t work then I have one name Axel Alonso.

Both? The more popularity Wally loses, the more and more he becomes irrelevant. It's been a 15 year slide of pain. You can be upset about both.

People did vote with their wallet. Barry had worse sales in the New 52 than Wally ever had in his entire career. Wallets don't matter when DC is not a comics company, but an IP company. As long as they're grinding out their minimums it doesn't matter. The only way voting with a wallet would matter is if Wally could sell as well as Batman. He can't. He is not popular enough. He never will be.

You're talking about the company and the man who kicked Wally out of his own comic when he was the third most successful hero at the time. They demonstrably don't care about it unless it's the cornerstone of their business. The only thing that could get DC to give a shit is if, magically, all the Batman fans swapped to being Wally fans.

Like seriously, how in the hell can you even express it with your wallet? There isn't a comic he was even a part of around anymore. He didn't have a comic, there's no Titans comics, Barry fans are literally the direct opposition fanbase by intentional design so The Flash is out of the picture. That is why they fuck with him. They have effectively excised him from relevance to their line. This is a deliberate environment.

[Robanker]

As far as I'm concerned, this is a missed oppurtunity for a buddy comedy about Wally and Piper as cellmates in Ironheights.

Much like Harley blowing up kids in the New 52, no pie in the face following is going to elicit a laugh out of me.

I've dealt with my share of loss. More of my family is dead than alive and I'm currently the caretaker of my sole remaining grandparent, of which has lost their child (my mother) and most her siblings which she herself raised as her own when her own parents died. My sister's response and mine are so different you'd think they're unrelated. From my own experiences, my surviving family's and many others, I'd like to say I understand that not everyone's trauma is the same, that depression is a lifelong crippling affliction and that healing takes time and may never complete. I bring that up because Heroes in Crisis reads like someone who has experienced those things, never really overcame them, and wants validation because they have made mistakes in trying to do so. It really feels like "ITT anyone else feel like Wally?"

And I'm 100% certain that people do. Here's the problem:

I don't understand the takeaway here. It's okay for Wally to have covered up the murder of his friends because he felt bad and wanted time to make it right by telling others it's okay to feel broken? Obviously King is trying to discuss that everyone hurts and it's okay to hurt, but he really has no idea how to express that without doing immense harm to a character and tripping over his own message. In having Wally cover up the killings, he did more harm than good and ultimately killed his story. It can't be about letting others know they aren't alone anymore because, well, he's trying to empathize with people when he's clearly gone insane. He became unsympathetic the minute he shoved teeth in a corpse's mouth to point toward an innocent party who was mourning her lover that he himself killed.

It's like killing someone's dog and then offering to help them look for him with the intent of later spilling the beans but saying you get how they feel because you lost a dog once too.


Bruh.

And before anyone posts "issue #9 hasn't even come out yet," intent matters. Wally, though riddled with grief, is responsible for his actions. No retcon can change this outside of it never having been him. So long as that's Wally West and he's not possessed by Parallax mainling Speed Force or something equally asinine, congratulations, you've crossed him over into villainous behavior.

He is responsible for his friends dying by his hand when they sought out actual treatment. They died trying to help him. Had he turned himself in and spoke on that, bravo, you succeeded. That extra wrinkle is full-on character assassination that is only there to necessitate a stillborn murder mystery. This is a poor cover of "Crime and Punishment" and the tragedy is there are characters that this sort of thing would be far more fitting for. Wally West would never have done this and my source is I've been reading his stories for nearly twenty damned years.

I have no doubt in my mind that Tom King really wanted to talk about something here, but he admitted he went in with a plot and was given characters to tell it with. When you're telling a character-driven mystery, maybe start with tailoring it to the actual characters.

Everything about Heroes in Crisis is piss-poor, but I genuinely feel bad for Tom King in this result. Regardless of execution (and boy, was it poor), he really did seem to want to tell something that mattered to him. Those are the failures that cut deepest. Sucks for everyone involved, fictional or otherwise

[The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper]

Then eventually someone else will take Didio’s spot and Wally will become a good person again. These are comics they go in cycles. Look at Hydra Cap. That is all forgotten now.

So because she trying to do good we will forget her previous crimes, same thing will happen to Wally eventually.

Much like Harley blowing up kids in the New 52, no pie in the face following is going to elicit a laugh out of me.

I've dealt with loss in my lifetime. More of my family is dead than alive and I'm currently the caretaker of my sole remaining grandparent. My sister's response and mine are so different you'd think they're unrelated. I'd like to say I understand that not everyone's trauma is the same, that depression is a lifelong crippling affliction and that healing takes time and may never complete. I bring that up because Heroes in Crisis reads like someone who has experienced those things, never really overcame them, and wants validation because they have made mistakes in trying to do so. It really feels like "ITT anyone else feel like Wally?"

And I'm 100% certain that people do. Here's the problem:

I don't understand the takeaway here. It's okay for Wally to have covered up the murder of his friends because he felt bad and wanted time to make it right by telling others it's okay to feel broken? Obviously King is trying to discuss that everyone hurts and it's okay to hurt, but he really has no idea how to express that without doing immense harm to a character and tripping over his own message. In having Wally cover up the killings, he did more harm than good and ultimately killed his story. It can't be about letting others know they aren't alone anymore because, well, he's trying to empathize with people when he's clearly gone insane. He became unsympathetic the minute he shoved teeth in a corpse's mouth to point toward an innocent party who was mourning her lover that he himself killed.

It's like killing someone's dog and then offering to help them look for him with the intent of later spilling the beans but saying you get how they feel because you lost a dog once too.


Bruh.

He is responsible for his friends dying by his hand when they sought out actual treatment. They died trying to help him. Had he turned himself in and spoke on that, bravo, you succeeded. That extra wrinkle is full-on character assassination that is only there to necessitate a stillborn murder mystery. This is a poor cover of "Crime and Punishment" and the tragedy is there are characters that this sort of thing would be far more fitting for. Wally West would never have done this and my source is I've been reading his stories for nearly twenty damned years.

I have no doubt in my mind that Tom King really wanted to talk about something here, but he admitted he went in with a plot and was given characters to tell it with. When you're telling a character-driven mystery, maybe start with tailoring it to the actual characters.

Everything about Heroes in Crisis is piss-poor, but I genuinely feel bad for Tom King in this result. Regardless of execution (and boy, was it poor), he really did seem to want to tell something that mattered to him. Those are the failures that cut deepest. Sucks for everyone involved, fictional or otherwise

I think that his cover-up is clearly his real crime of the book and I'm not sure it was ever intended to be in character. Maybe the point is that sometimes people who do horrible things aren't the Lex Luthors or the world. Sometimes they're the Wally Wests who in a vulnerable moment make a horrendous decision and his was the cover up. Wally probably felt like he had betrayed everything he has ever stood for and felt like there was no way out. Maybe the suicide is there to show how trapped Wally feels but by the end spoilers:

he faces up to his mistake and seems to agree to serve his time.

end of spoilers Maybe the very point is how wrong it feels to see someone like Wally this broken.

As far as my buddy comedy idea... I just think if Wally has always had a flair for being a little overly dramatic and hard on himself. He needed a friend like Piper to talk to about this stuff, not a computer. Someone who knows him well enough to get him out of his own head.

I agree that this story lacks great execution and the choice to use Wally really didn't end up panning out but I'm also sick of dwelling on how bad it all is. I'd rather either try to figure out what he was trying to say and discuss it or laugh about it and move on.

[Blue22]

Much like Harley blowing up kids in the New 52, no pie in the face following is going to elicit a laugh out of me.

I've dealt with loss in my lifetime. Everyone has. That's the universal constant of life: it ends. More of my family is dead than alive and I'm currently the caretaker of my sole remaining grandparent. My sister's response and mine are so different you'd think they're unrelated. I'd like to say I understand that not everyone's trauma is the same, that depression is a lifelong crippling affliction and that healing takes time and may never complete. I bring that up because Heroes in Crisis reads like someone who has experienced those things, never really overcame them, and wants validation because they have made mistakes in trying to do so. It really feels like "ITT anyone else feel like Wally?"

And I'm 100% certain that people do. Here's the problem:

I don't understand the takeaway here. It's okay for Wally to have covered up the murder of his friends because he felt bad and wanted time to make it right by telling others it's okay to feel broken? Obviously King is trying to discuss that everyone hurts and it's okay to hurt, but he really has no idea how to express that without doing immense harm to a character and tripping over his own message. In having Wally cover up the killings, he did more harm than good and ultimately killed his story. It can't be about letting others know they aren't alone anymore because, well, he's trying to empathize with people when he's clearly gone insane. He became unsympathetic the minute he shoved teeth in a corpse's mouth to point toward an innocent party who was mourning her lover that he himself killed.

It's like killing someone's dog and then offering to help them look for him with the intent of later spilling the beans but saying you get how they feel because you lost a dog once too.


Bruh.

And before anyone posts "issue #9 hasn't even come out yet," intent matters. Wally, though riddled with grief, is responsible for his actions. No retcon can change this outside of it never having been him. So long as that's Wally West and he's not possessed by Parallax mainling Speed Force or something equally asinine, congratulations, you've crossed him over into villainous behavior.

He is responsible for his friends dying by his hand when they sought out actual treatment. They died trying to help him. Had he turned himself in and spoke on that, bravo, you succeeded. That extra wrinkle is full-on character assassination that is only there to necessitate a stillborn murder mystery. This is a poor cover of "Crime and Punishment" and the tragedy is there are characters that this sort of thing would be far more fitting for. Wally West would never have done this and my source is I've been reading his stories for nearly twenty damned years.

I have no doubt in my mind that Tom King really wanted to talk about something here, but he admitted he went in with a plot and was given characters to tell it with. When you're telling a character-driven mystery, maybe start with tailoring it to the actual characters.

Everything about Heroes in Crisis is piss-poor, but I genuinely feel bad for Tom King in this result. Regardless of execution (and boy, was it poor), he really did seem to want to tell something that mattered to him. Those are the failures that cut deepest. Sucks for everyone involved, fictional or otherwise

I honestly couldn't have said it better, myself. It sucks because I do think King is a good writer and his heart is clearly in this and his Batman run. But..damn, he just...doesn't get it. And I fear that he'll be one of those people who genuinely thinks readers are only upset because "haha, nerds don't like change" (i.e. Lobdell's not so subtle jabs at fans who miss Dick).

[Dred]

I think that his cover-up is clearly his real crime of the book and I'm not sure it was ever intended to be in character. Maybe the point is that sometimes people who do horrible things aren't the Lex Luthors or the world. Sometimes they're the Wally Wests who in a vulnerable moment make a horrendous decision and his was the cover up. Wally probably felt like he had betrayed everything he has ever stood for and felt like there was no way out. Maybe the suicide is there to show how trapped Wally feels but by the end spoilers:

he faces up to his mistake and seems to agree to serve his time.

end of spoilers Maybe the very point is how wrong it feels to see someone like Wally this broken.

As far as my buddy comedy idea... I just think if Wally has always had a flair for being a little overly dramatic and hard on himself. He needed a friend like Piper to talk to about this stuff, not a computer. Someone who knows him well enough to get him out of his own head.

I agree that this story lacks great execution and the choice to use Wally really didn't end up panning out but I'm also sick of dwelling on how bad it all is. I'd rather either try to figure out what he was trying to say and discuss it or laugh about it and move on.

The cover up is not his real crime(at least not his only one). His real crime is hacking into a super ai to forcefully, and against the consent of all involved, read the medical records of dozens of people. Many of who trust him and consider him their friend. He was the impetus for everything bad that happened. He's also now a dangerous walking bomb who can NEVER AGAIN be trusted to be a hero for fear of him exploding and killing innocent people like he did today.

THEN he killed a bunch of people, which on its best face is mass negligent slaughter. Just because you didn't mean to run your semi into a bus full of school children doesn't mean you're free of blame. That's life sentence shit there. Not to mention he never mentioned his condition to anyone, despite apparently knowing he could explode and kill people since he was a child. Hyper negligence!

AND THEN he did the cover up AND framing of two innocent people, which was literally a split second away from Booster dying (because Barbara is a fucking idiot). Imagine a world where a less savory vigilante comes across the two thought to be responsible for killing all those people. Jason probably puts a bullet in Harley's head (of course, she'd easily beat him up, but that's beside the point). Framing two people for mass murder and siccing them on each other is not just extremely criminal, it's viciously and psychopathically manipulative.

And what caused all this? What made Wally become one of the worst criminals in superhero society?

Seeking out treatment at a mental health facility. The absolute worst fucking message anyone can give about mental health -- seeking health leads to mass death, violence, mistrust, abuse, and incarceration of the mentally ill. Thanks Tom King. What a wonderful look into trauma -- don't get it or you become either dead or a monster.

[The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper]

The cover up is not his real crime(at least not his only one). His real crime is hacking into a super ai to forcefully, and against the consent of all involved, read the medical records of dozens of people. Many of who trust him and consider him their friend. He was the impetus for everything bad that happened. He's also now a dangerous walking bomb who can NEVER AGAIN be trusted to be a hero for fear of him exploding and killing innocent people like he did today.

THEN he killed a bunch of people, which on its best face is mass negligent slaughter. Just because you didn't mean to run your semi into a bus full of school children doesn't mean you're free of blame. That's life sentence shit there. Not to mention he never mentioned his condition to anyone, despite apparently knowing he could explode and kill people since he was a child. Hyper negligence!

AND THEN he did the cover up AND framing of two innocent people, which was literally a split second away from Booster dying (because Barbara is a fucking idiot). Imagine a world where a less savory vigilante comes across the two thought to be responsible for killing all those people. Jason probably puts a bullet in Harley's head (of course, she'd easily beat him up, but that's beside the point). Framing two people for mass murder and siccing them on each other is not just extremely criminal, it's viciously and psychopathically manipulative.

And what caused all this? What made Wally become one of the worst criminals in superhero society?

Seeking out treatment at a mental health facility. The absolute worst fucking message anyone can give about mental health -- seeking health leads to mass death, violence, mistrust, abuse, and incarceration of the mentally ill. Thanks Tom King. What a wonderful look into trauma -- don't get it or you become either dead or a monster.

I know that you're probably right. I just don't care enough to get mad anymore. I was FURIOUS when I found out we weren't getting that Speedforce book when Barry came back and I was even more angry when the New 52 happened. Now I just feel like I'm shrugging off another round of DC making bad calls.

I'm enjoying and commited to certain books right now (mostly Flash and JL) and I'm willing to see if they can turn this Wally thing around by the time these runs end and maybe I stick around for a little longer. Everytime they pull something like this though I just care less and less though and year after year my pull list gets shorter. That's all there is to it to me.

Edit: I disagree about your comments about Tom King though. I think the guy tried to write about a difficult topic and failed. I still like that he tried and think that writers should be given creative freedom to try outside the box ideas. I just don't think this one worked.

[BatmanJones]

Wally isn't ending up anywhere because this is not Wally West. Just like the New 52, they bastardized everything about him and slapped his name on it. I'm glad you're interested, but you're not interested in Wally West and probably never were.

I'm a fan of Heroes in Crisis and I love Wally West. I've loved Wally West since I started reading comics almost 50 years ago. Go ahead and say the rest of what you said--I would never tell you were wrong to have a different opinion that I do--but the bolded part above is a bit much.

[Dred]

I'm a fan of Heroes in Crisis and I love Wally West. I've loved Wally West since I started reading comics almost 50 years ago. Go ahead and say the rest of what you said--I would never tell you were wrong to have a different opinion that I do--but the bolded part above is a bit much.

Explain to me how this is Wally West, then. I'm all ears. I love the character down to my bones and I've never been more disgusted or insulted by a piece of work involving him. It literally flies in the face of everything he ever did or stood for as a character. It's like turning Superman into a Nihilist or Batman into a simpleton serial killer. Wally West, abusive, psychotic, criminal mastermind, who also is basically a bomb with legs. There are villains who are better people than Wally, now. How can you like Wally West and like what HiC has done with him? How are these compatible to anyone? It's a sickening destruction of him and the concept of living with mental trauma, yet that's good?

Like seriously, what does a writer have to do to a character to justify it being blasphemy towards said character? Because HiC certainly hits that bar for me and goes way fucking below said bar.