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Thread: Identity Crisis

  1. #91
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    Its still incorrect.

    Like I said Future keeps changing and Future depends on the action in the PRESENT.

    If YOU read the Comics you saw that also as DC REBIRTH Tim didnt remember Conner and Titans of Tomorrow refused to reveal their identities to Clark as they arrived to save Jonathan Samuel Kent.
    As TITANS OF TOMORROW Tim Drake came back to the Present in Rebirth he talked about Conner to the PRESENT DC REBIRTH Tim who didnt remember at Conner and so TITANS OF TOMORROW Tim realized that the PRESENT was altered.

    This means that the DC REBIRTH Future could be another one as we saw, because the Timeline was manipulated by Dr. Manhattan and Barry.
    You seem to be working with very limited and incomplete info.Do more research/expand your knowledge of the DCU. There's more than wiki and TOt.

    DC's own guide to the Multiverse describes Beyond as our world but set a few years in the future. It is the only officially recognised future by DC.

    Doomsday Clock doesn't affect anything going forward as confirmed by Synder. The whole manipulated timeline is just pretty much an elseworld.

    See https://community.cbr.com/showthread...n-2019/page139

    @ Dark I hope you don't mind

    I have a feeling you only follow certain characters ie the 90's YJcrew which is why you are so misinformed and keep dragging out inconsequential arcs like TOT in every debate

    Anyway non of that matters while i give you credit for realising unlike "smart adult Tim" That the future isn't set {I agree with you on this} It doesn't change the fact that Beyond is DC's chosen future. It isn't an else world or an alternate timeline.

    DC has too many possible future and that is what they will remain possible future. it's unlikely that DC is ever going to have any other main batman aside from Bruce and Terry everyone else is going to get a stint in between that ends for reasons. The line of succession is always going to go Bruce Dick likely in a temp position because damain is too young, Damian then terry [like it is in 90% of futures] but the two batmen who we will have a long stint will be Bruce and terry.

    Beyond like Bruce is too successful to change so 666, TOT, 700,rebirth JL Future with Hunter, the most current future seen with synder's JL with civilservant Tim, SSOT future with two batman and 2 supermen or the recent AOSS future with Jon and damian as retired granpa's non of them will happen.

    beyond is DC's future as of right now and that is canon. If it changes [i highly doubt it] then we'll have this convo.

    I didn't mean to do such a long post but it's frustrated seeing someone pull info from the same limited well over and over.

    none of this has much to do with the thread i know.
    That panel was stupid every single member of the Robins could be described as all those aside from little and obnoxious. they are all crazy smart are excel at detective work. They are a family of exceptional people.
    Last edited by dietrich; 07-19-2019 at 05:06 AM.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    You have so limited info are so uninformed and do such limited research it's laughable.

    DC's own guide to the Multiverse describes Beyond as our world but set a few years in the future. It is the only officially recognised future by DC.

    Doomsday Clock doesn't affect anything going forward as confirmed by Synder. The whole manipulated timeline is just pretty much an elseworld.

    See https://community.cbr.com/showthread...n-2019/page139

    @ Dark I hope you don't mind

    I have a feeling you only follow certain characters ie the 90's YJcrew which is why you are so misinformed and keep dragging out inconsequential arcs like TOT in every debate at some point you're going to doing the math and realise that that SSOT arc only happened because DC got bendis and he had an idea for Kon. The original story Tomasi planned had Adult damian returned and saving the day from demented tim but Tomasi was forced to change his story halfway through hence why the panel of damian rising from the ashes of a Tim destroyed Gotham never led to anything.

    Anyway non of that matters while i give you credit for realising unlike "smart adult Tim" That the future isn't set {I agree with you on this} It doesn't change the fact that Beyond is DC's chosen future. It isn't an else world or an alternate timeline.

    DC has too many possible future and that is what they will remain possible future. it's unlikely that DC is ever going to have any other main batman aside from Bruce and Terry everyone else is going to get a stint in between that ends for reasons. The line of succession is always going to go Bruce Dick likely in a temp position because damain is too young, Damian then terry [like it is in 90% of futures] but the two batmen who we will have a long stint will be Bruce and terry.

    Beyond like Bruce is too successful to change so 666, TOT, 700,rebirth JL Future with Hunter, the most current future seen with synder's JL with civilservant Tim, SSOT future with two batman and 2 supermen or the recent AOSS future with Jon and damian as retired granpa's non of them will happen.

    Arkham Ayslum2 might change the game a bit but not enough to make depose terry as future batman. beyond is DC's future as of right now and that is canon. If it changes [i highly doubt it] then we'll have this convo.

    I didn't mean to do such a long post but it's frustrated seeing someone pull info from the same limited well over and over.

    none of this has much to do with the thread i know.
    That panel was stupid every single member of the Robins could be described as all those aside from little and obnoxious. they are all crazy smart are excel at detective work. They are a family of exceptional people.
    1. Batman Beyond isnt so successful:
    http://yetanothercomicsblog.blogspot...-may-2019.html
    here in 2019 he sells about 16,000 copies of every issue, which isnt much.

    2. Future is like I said ALWAYS a possibility and so therefore cant be canon, because the Future can change in one moment.
    Like ToT in Pre-Flashpoint.
    First they had Bart in the Team, but Bart was a spy
    Then Bart died and next time as they showed up they had a evil clone Bart in the team.

    So only the Present and the Past can be considered as Canon, because if a villain kills now in the present Damian or Terry for example the whole future will change.

    3. This "DC's own guide to the Multiverse describes Beyond as our world but set a few years in the future" isnt important.
    If you read Titans of Tomorrow then you see that at the beginning was also written "Gotham City....Ten years from now..."


    I personally wouldnt be surprised if they change Batman Beyond, because 16,000 isnt much and Young Justice for example sells over 30,000....

  3. #93
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    1. Batman Beyond isnt so successful:
    http://yetanothercomicsblog.blogspot...-may-2019.html
    here in 2019 he sells about 16,000 copies of every issue, which isnt much.

    2. Future is like I said ALWAYS a possibility and so therefore cant be canon, because the Future can change in one moment.
    Like ToT in Pre-Flashpoint.
    First they had Bart in the Team, but Bart was a spy
    Then Bart died and next time as they showed up they had a evil clone Bart in the team.

    So only the Present and the Past can be considered as Canon, because if a villain kills now in the present Damian or Terry for example the whole future will change.

    3. This "DC's own guide to the Multiverse describes Beyond as our world but set a few years in the future" isnt important.
    If you read Titans of Tomorrow then you see that at the beginning was also written "Gotham City....Ten years from now..."


    I personally wouldnt be surprised if they change Batman Beyond, because 16,000 isnt much and Young Justice for example sells over 30,000....
    The fact that you are judging the success of batman beyond based on the comic sales pretty much extra emphasises everything I thought and said to you about using a limited well of info for you analysis.


    Harley is DC's 4th pillar and WW is their 3rd how much do their comics sell. We've gone over this before in MULTIPLE threads. Comic's are a niche market and as such isn't an accurate method to judge these properties.


    What DC's own guide to the galaxy tells us is all that matters mate and that is that as of today as we have this discussion BB is the future. The only DC approved future.
    Last edited by dietrich; 07-19-2019 at 05:10 AM.

  4. #94
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    Dietrich you have far too much energy and you are wasting it here. I've seen this poster argue that Conner Kent is on par with WW based on comics sales.

    @ Masteriff comics sales are pennies compared to stuff like merch and syndicated animation. Why do you think IP's like BB and Red Hood are still put out despite being below the 20K cut off? because they are super popular with the wider public beyond the teeny comic crowd and bring in major funds from other sources.
    Last edited by Fergus; 07-10-2019 at 04:30 AM.

  5. #95
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    Dietrich you have far too much energy and you are wasting it here. I've seen this poster argue that Conner Kent is on par with WW based on comics sales.

    @ Masteriff comics sales are pennies compared to stuff like merch and syndicated animation. Why do you think IP's like BB and Red Hood are still put out despite being below the 20K cut off? because they are super popular with the wider public beyond the teeny comic crowd and bring in major funds from other sources.
    Quoted for truth.

  6. #96
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    If Tim remembers all his time with Steph, then he remembers pretty much all his old history. Theres no two ways about it, she has been an integral part of his life practically from the start of his solo.

    As to what exactly happened, its safe to say all of it did. Why are his parents back alive? hard to say (tho i wasnt aware this got confirmed), why is the clue master alive again as well? we dont know. These are just a few examples, that things havent been explained or clarified yet simply isnt relevant as to wether they did actually happen.

    As to Damian being smarter than Tim, it hardly matters, Bart is smarter than Tim as well, Bart is smarter than Damian.

    Tims feats are ridiculous in a comicbooky way. He has hacked metallo, he has learned kryptonian and learned how to use their code. He put together who Batman and Robin were, and then proceeded to figure out who everyone else was, as a hobby. He has been able to replicate some of Lex Luthor and Ray Palmers technology pretty much with just self study and a can do attitude. He has been able to cripple the entirety of the order of dumas, the league of assassins and the colony in as short a time as a few seconds. He is probably one of the most dangerous men alive, as appraised by Ras.
    He has at some point successfully lead the old titans and the new titans, and he started a team of his own that is still relevant 20 years after. And he has remained humble through the whole thing, always ready to step down to let his big brother take charge.

    Also he has managed to keep gotham under control for extended periods of time, during Batmans many absences from gotham. Batman RIP is not a good example, but his first mini is.

    What makes some of these feats really impressive is that he has managed to do it with a lot of leg work behind it, not as some genetically engineered to be perfect "I can do it because of course i can" character. But as an "Im in waaaaaaaaaay over my head but they need me" way.

  7. #97
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mataza View Post
    If Tim remembers all his time with Steph, then he remembers pretty much all his old history. Theres no two ways about it, she has been an integral part of his life practically from the start of his solo.

    As to what exactly happened, its safe to say all of it did. Why are his parents back alive? hard to say (tho i wasnt aware this got confirmed), why is the clue master alive again as well? we dont know. These are just a few examples, that things havent been explained or clarified yet simply isnt relevant as to wether they did actually happen.

    As to Damian being smarter than Tim, it hardly matters, Bart is smarter than Tim as well, Bart is smarter than Damian.

    Tims feats are ridiculous in a comicbooky way. He has hacked metallo, he has learned kryptonian and learned how to use their code. He put together who Batman and Robin were, and then proceeded to figure out who everyone else was, as a hobby. He has been able to replicate some of Lex Luthor and Ray Palmers technology pretty much with just self study and a can do attitude. He has been able to cripple the entirety of the order of dumas, the league of assassins and the colony in as short a time as a few seconds. He is probably one of the most dangerous men alive, as appraised by Ras.
    He has at some point successfully lead the old titans and the new titans, and he started a team of his own that is still relevant 20 years after. And he has remained humble through the whole thing, always ready to step down to let his big brother take charge.

    Also he has managed to keep gotham under control for extended periods of time, during Batmans many absences from gotham. Batman RIP is not a good example, but his first mini is.

    What makes some of these feats really impressive is that he has managed to do it with a lot of leg work behind it, not as some genetically engineered to be perfect "I can do it because of course i can" character. But as an "Im in waaaaaaaaaay over my head but they need me" way.
    Not everyone can be genetically engineered to be perfect. Some are just naturally perfect. Just look at the guy who started it all. Dick Grayson. Jason Todd is an equally impressive independent solo hero who managed to do it all without genetic engineering.


    They all have far too many qualities, traits and adjectives that can be applied to them that it's an insult to strip em down to 'The Smart one, The Funny one, The Techguy'

    Tim has 3 years with the Batfamily in which time Damian was Robin for 3 years. Bruce 'died', Dick was Batman with Damian Robin, Jim Gordon was Batman, Batman worked solo, Batman trained and worked with Duke, Batman worked with Damian as Robin, Tim was in YJ as Robin, Tim was in TT as RR, Tim worked with Batman and the team in Tec and Bruce is back working with Damian.

    3 years in where for 90% of definite confirmed canon batman was working with another sidekick, working alone or was a different guy under the cowl. To say he remembers his whole history is just you saying words you wish to believe. To say he has his whole history is is false.

    At this point I doubt even Tim knows his history

  8. #98
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Not everyone can be genetically engineered to be perfect. Some are just naturally perfect. Just look at the guy who started it all. Dick Grayson. Jason Todd is an equally impressive independent solo hero who managed to do it all without genetic engineering.


    They all have far too many qualities, traits and adjectives that can be applied to them that it's an insult to strip em down to 'The Smart one, The Funny one, The Techguy'

    Tim has 3 years with the Batfamily in which time Damian was Robin for 3 years. Bruce 'died', Dick was Batman with Damian Robin, Jim Gordon was Batman, Batman worked solo, Batman trained and worked with Duke, Batman worked with Damian as Robin, Tim was in YJ as Robin, Tim was in TT as RR, Tim worked with Batman and the team in Tec and Bruce is back working with Damian.

    3 years in where for 90% of definite confirmed canon batman was working with another sidekick, working alone or was a different guy under the cowl. To say he remembers his whole history is just you saying words you wish to believe. To say he has his whole history is is false.

    At this point I doubt even Tim knows his history
    At this moment, is in the same state that most DC characters at the moment:

    Fans: This "insert story here" happen or didn't.
    DC: Yes
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
    Wolverine, Venom Annual # 1 (2018)
    Nobody does it better by Jeff Loveness

    "I am Thou, Thou Art I"
    Persona

  9. #99
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    At this moment, is in the same state that most DC characters at the moment:

    Fans: This "insert story here" happen or didn't.
    DC: Yes
    Not really. not even close. Only a few and I can't even think of one character in the state tim's continuity is. A few years are missing for a few but 17?, folks suddenly back but not, mix of old and new continuity that actively contradict each other and what's known for def makes little sense even for comics?

  10. #100
    Ultimate Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Not really. not even close. Only a few and I can't even think of one character in the state tim's continuity is. A few years are missing for a few but 17?, folks suddenly back but not, mix of old and new continuity that actively contradict each other and what's known for def makes little sense even for comics?
    Donna's origins are an example of this mess of continuity. Somehow, she still has her New52 origins when it was revealed that those Amazons were only an illusion.

  11. #101
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    Donnas origin being a mess is DC being consistent.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    Its still incorrect.

    Like I said Future keeps changing and Future depends on the action in the PRESENT.

    If YOU read the Comics you saw that also as DC REBIRTH Tim didnt remember Conner and Titans of Tomorrow refused to reveal their identities to Clark as they arrived to save Jonathan Samuel Kent.
    As TITANS OF TOMORROW Tim Drake came back to the Present in Rebirth he talked about Conner to the PRESENT DC REBIRTH Tim who didnt remember at Conner and so TITANS OF TOMORROW Tim realized that the PRESENT was altered.

    This means that the DC REBIRTH Future could be another one as we saw, because the Timeline was manipulated by Dr. Manhattan and Barry.
    Okay. Fine. That could be possible. Now since you clearly feel you are an expert, tell me has there ever been a future shown where Tim doesn't become a serial killer if he's Batman? Considering that Super Sons of Tomorrow and a Lonely Place of Living both established that Tim keeps leaping through timelines to murder Jon, Damian, and Kate, and the Titans of Tomorrow stories were quite clear about Tim killing people with less restraint than nine year old Damian. Besides the first time we see Tim as Batman in Detective Comics Annual 4 where he dies his first night out due to failing basic spot checks, is there a single example of Tim as a good Batman?

    We've seen Damian successfully mentor a successor and pass on the cowl with Terry in multiple futures, we saw in Countdown that Jason was a good Batman in at least one universe, and Dick has proven more than once that he is an excellent Batman despite his self esteem issues.

    So can you provide evidence that Tim is a good Batman?

  13. #103
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    I'd personally argue that it's because Tim -doesn't- succeed at being healthy batman, but is instead more of a fascist batman that makes him best for the role.

    Tim takes Batman to its logical conclusion. Doesn't make it right. Doesn't make him a hero...but I'd argue that Tim, because of his methodologies and similarities to bruce, is a better batman narratively. If you want a happy ending go for Dick. If you want a gary stu ending, go for damian. But Tim, as batman, represents the tragedy that is inherent in the Batman character.

    That's just my interpretation of who batman is though so ymmv.

  14. #104
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by josai21 View Post
    I'd personally argue that it's because Tim -doesn't- succeed at being healthy batman, but is instead more of a fascist batman that makes him best for the role.

    Tim takes Batman to its logical conclusion. Doesn't make it right. Doesn't make him a hero...but I'd argue that Tim, because of his methodologies and similarities to bruce, is a better batman narratively. If you want a happy ending go for Dick. If you want a gary stu ending, go for damian. But Tim, as batman, represents the tragedy that is inherent in the Batman character.

    That's just my interpretation of who batman is though so ymmv.
    Fascism isn't the logical conclusion to Batman.

    Better narratively is subjective. If I want something similar to Batman then I'd just read the real thing.

    They all represent the tragedy inherent in Batman. Batman, the state of Gotham represent the tragedy inherent in batman.

  15. #105
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    Nevermind.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 07-12-2019 at 10:35 PM.

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