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Thread: Identity Crisis

  1. #76
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by josai21 View Post
    I mean the city was in turmoil. Tim could only do so much without the symbol of Batman, but he played the gangs off each other and kept it from spiraling completely out of control. It's one of the reasons he was a candidate for the cowl. Though Jason stabbed him in the chest with a crowbar...

    Honestly, he would have remained robin or become nightwing I think if Damian as a character wasn't still around. It would have been a different dynamic to be sure.
    Damian was in Gotham. He was the one that saved Tim as he was playing possum after Jason stabbed him.

    Tim's history is dodgy because at the time of RIP he would have been 13 and only just joined the family. I follow young Justice and NO nowhere in that title does it say that Tim got his whole history back Mate. Yes he said he had a whole other life but that I took to mean the YJ era which he finally recalled.

    Dick was the one who managed Gotham when Bruce was gone.
    Last edited by dietrich; 06-09-2019 at 10:49 PM.

  2. #77
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by josai21 View Post
    During Batman RIP.

    People if you're going to debate the intelligence of the character compared to others at least read the dedicated series bearing the person's name. (Directing this more towards CP than you Godlike).

    Or heck, even the wiki...

    https://batman.fandom.com/wiki/Tim_Drake
    Wait, RIP last for months? I only read RIP the main story and the impression I got was the part where Batman went insane only happened for two days.

    Are we talking in-story months or publication months?

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Damian was in Gotham. He was the one that saved Tim as he was playing possum after Jason stabbed him.

    Tim's history is dodgy because at the time of RIP he would have been 13 and only just joined the family. I follow young Justice and NO nowhere in that title does it say that Tim got his whole history back Mate. Yes he said he had a whole other life but that I took to mean the YJ era which he finally recalled.

    Dick was the one who managed Gotham when Bruce was gone.
    I don’t see how you can read the line “I had a whole other life” as being -just- young Justice. He also remembered Stephanie being a part of that life. Stephanie was hardly involved with young justice. If you can’t read incontext I can’t help you.

    I think you’re purposely misreading it because you don’t like the character and it’s implications.

    Tim has his full memories back. That’s a fact. It’s what happened. You’re stretching

    The robin series makes clear Tim managed Gotham while Bruce was gone until Dick showed up.

    One thing that must be accepted about comics is contradictions can and do occur. Just like it makes no sense logistically for Bruce to do all he does with the Justice League and Gotham, we accept it. We still say those events happened even if there really is no way that is possible.

    I’m the same way, if it was written and not an elseworlds or possible future, it happened. Tim managed Gotham on his own -and- Dick managed Gotham. We can accept both.
    Last edited by josai21; 06-10-2019 at 07:22 AM.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Wait, RIP last for months? I only read RIP the main story and the impression I got was the part where Batman went insane only happened for two days.

    Are we talking in-story months or publication months?

    It lasted through RIP and Battle for the cowl. So actual months. It’s implied in the side stories that Batman was missing for awhile.

  5. #80
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by josai21 View Post
    I don’t see how you can read the line “I had a whole other life” as being -just- young Justice. He also remembered Stephanie being a part of that life. Stephanie was hardly involved with young justice. If you can’t read incontext I can’t help you.

    I think you’re purposely misreading it because you don’t like the character and it’s implications.

    Tim has his full memories back. That’s a fact. It’s what happened. You’re stretching

    The robin series makes clear Tim managed Gotham while Bruce was gone until Dick showed up.

    One thing that must be accepted about comics is contradictions can and do occur. Just like it makes no sense logistically for Bruce to do all he does with the Justice League and Gotham, we accept it. We still say those events happened even if there really is no way that is possible.

    I’m the same way, if it was written and not an elseworlds or possible future, it happened. Tim managed Gotham on his own -and- Dick managed Gotham. We can accept both.
    That's BS you are reaching.

    Not only does it just refer to YJ but we see so much more inconsistencies. Steph's dad being alive, Tim's folks being alive. What we have is a strange mix of pre flashpoint and nu52 until the dust clears this Tim isn't that Tim. Reach as much as you like.

    Back to the topic at hand You say damian might when he grows be smarter than Tim that you are not comparing 10 yr old Tim to 10 yr old Damian perhaps you should read the points the posters are presenting before you rush to type.

    I was comparing them at what they achieved at similar ages. Damian at 10 was canonically much smarter and a better detective than Tim at 10. Damian at 13 is canonically much smarter than Tim at 13. Logic dictates that Damian at 16 is going to be much smarter that Tim at 16 unless someone gives him a lobotomy. So Damian is smarter than Tim.


    All the Robins are smart and they are all detectives so to be the smart one isn't really anything. Especially when that title was bestowed before the introduction of all the family members.


    One thing that must be accepted about comics is contradictions can and do occur. Just like it makes no sense logistically for Bruce to do all he does with the Justice League and Gotham, we accept it. We still say those events happened even if there really is no way that is possible.

    I’m the same way, if it was written and not an elseworlds or possible future, it happened. Tim managed Gotham on his own -and- Dick managed Gotham. We can accept both.



    Your words. So if we can accept both then The less than smart button pushing new52 Tim and the orphaned Tim who Damian saved from getting blownup are the same?

    Tim is the Messed up Robin and Damian is smarter than both versions.
    Last edited by dietrich; 07-19-2019 at 04:55 AM.

  6. #81
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by josai21 View Post
    A. I'm not comparing ten/thirteen year old Tim to ten/thirteen year old damian. I'm comparing current Tim to current Damian. Could damian surpass Tim one day as a detective? Sure, but I'm going to maintain my stance that Damian is bad for storytelling and even worse than the Batgod we get in Justice league sometimes. If your ten/thirteen year old character makes all the other supporting cast redundant, then that character is not good for storytelling. There is a reason Damian was intended to die...

    B. Read Tim's robin series. All the evidence you need.

    C. Time doesn't matter in this instance. Tim lived both lives. He got his memory of another life. The actual time frame doesn't matter.
    D. Not going to debate with you anymore, you're not using logic or what actually happened in the comics. You're blinded by your fanboyism for Damian. If you can't even agree in the face of direct quotes in the comics then I have nothing to say.
    Dude stop assuming that everyone who isn't wanking Tim hasn't read tim.

    Damian was created to die because

    1) Grant intended to put his toys back in the box

    2) Grant didn't think that DC would let Bruce have a bio kid in canon in light of how Helena has never managed to make the leap. Nothing to do with your BS about making other members redundant. Funny Jay, Dick and duke seem to be doing just fine with Damian around [until that Ric BS]

    If out of 4 supporting characters only one is made redundant perhaps it has nothing to do with Damian and more to do with that particular character being superfluous in the world of Batman.

    Hear it from the creators mouth.

    Last edited by dietrich; 07-19-2019 at 04:56 AM.

  7. #82
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by josai21 View Post
    It lasted through RIP and Battle for the cowl. So actual months. It’s implied in the side stories that Batman was missing for awhile.
    Oh okay, that makes more sense because there's RIP, Final Crisis, before finally, Battle for The Cowl. I can see that taking months.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by josai21 View Post
    One thing that must be accepted about comics is contradictions can and do occur. Just like it makes no sense logistically for Bruce to do all he does with the Justice League and Gotham, we accept it. We still say those events happened even if there really is no way that is possible.

    I’m the same way, if it was written and not an elseworlds or possible future, it happened. Tim managed Gotham on his own -and- Dick managed Gotham. We can accept both.
    What? Tim couldn’t have managed Gotham on his own if Dick was there managing Gotham. It’s one thing to acknowledge that contradictions happen, it another to accept them. You don’t turn your brain off cause they say so. At most Tim might have thought he was managing Gotham on his own. Even though he was clearly not.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 06-10-2019 at 11:28 AM.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by josai21 View Post
    A. I'm not comparing ten/thirteen year old Tim to ten/thirteen year old damian. I'm comparing current Tim to current Damian. Could damian surpass Tim one day as a detective? Sure, but I'm going to maintain my stance that Damian is bad for storytelling and even worse than the Batgod we get in Justice league sometimes. If your ten/thirteen year old character makes all the other supporting cast redundant, then that character is not good for storytelling. There is a reason Damian was intended to die...

    B. Read Tim's robin series. All the evidence you need.

    C. Time doesn't matter in this instance. Tim lived both lives. He got his memory of another life. The actual time frame doesn't matter.
    D. Not going to debate with you anymore, you're not using logic or what actually happened in the comics. You're blinded by your fanboyism for Damian. If you can't even agree in the face of direct quotes in the comics then I have nothing to say.
    A, I was comparing their intelligence and stories at similar ages which was why I brought up 10 year old managing to do the job for 3 nights and egs from that age. A 10/13 yr old beating up adults is far fetched but that's comics and that's what Robins do. Hyperbole and false saying Damian makes all other supporting cast redundant.
    Damian is good for story telling which is why so many DC writers use him. They don't have to as proven by King and Synder [when he was on Batman that is]

    B, Tim was my Robin. I've read his Robin series and much more.

    C, I guess for now we have to disagree until DC tidies up it's continuity [fingers crossed this happens after DC.
    D, I thought I was using logic by comparing them at similar ages [it made sense] and taking into account the time frame and concrete info from the comics. That's fine if you don't want to debate but your claim that I'm blinded by my fanboyism is incorrect and dismissive. I might have a preference for Damian these days but I'm a fan of all Robins.


    Grant Morrison on why he killed Damian [interview from McCabe, Joseph. 100 Things Batman Fans Should Know & Do Before They Die. Triumph Books, 2017.]


    Your work also showed other creators how the character can evolve. Like when you gave him a son in Damian.

    Yeah. But I always just wanted to kill the kid so he wouldn’t affect the future of Batman. Because I knew [writer] Scott Snyder didn’t want to have to deal with the son. Because his Batman was a loner, he was a bit more human. He could screw up more. Whereas my Batman was…Okay, you’ve done 15 years of training. You’re a zen master. You wouldn’t have those hatreds anymore. The training would have bombed you out. You’d be an optimum man by this point, psychologically quite pure.

    You’d have inner peace.

    Yeah. So that’s my Batman. He’s the optimum man. He’s solved his problems. But I understand why it’s cool to write about a Batman who’s a bit more angry and angst-driven and just dealing with the mission. So that’s why I wanted Damian out of the picture—“Here’s the story and then he dies and Batman can move on and you need never mention the kid again.” But the kid then proved popular, and he’s in there again, screwing up the continuity. So I’m kind of pleased with that. But, you know…[Laughs.]
    Last edited by CPSparkles; 06-11-2019 at 08:09 PM.

  10. #85
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I hate when the boys are described like that. The Smart one, the funny one, the rebellious one. It doesn't do them justice. I can't stand that trope.
    Same here. I hate the dividing of them in aspects of Bruce thing a lot. Especially "Tim is the detective" - they're all freaking detectives, since Bruce trained the to detect. So is Barbara. Or at least, was once upon a time. I've seen Steph detect, too, though I haven't read as much with her (and less with Cass). But the boys bear the brunt of it as Robins (like Steph says, she gets forgotten, since her Robin time was just a publicity stunt - yeah, still bitter).

    But particularly, I feel like sometimes, not always, but sometimes they suffer from two things - one making all the other (former) Robins look incompetent in a certain area so the other can look better. Tim and detectiving are big one. And since he's the detective, Dick can't be anymore, even though in the old days Dick's detectiving was talked up quite a bit. He's my favorite, so I notice that the most. While Tim has been elevated from an intelligent person to a supergenius and Dick's "not a big thinker" rep, when he was very much a thinker in the older days, even post-crisis. Ooh, I long for the old days. Jason's very smart too, not only from school, but also his entire gangland takeover took some brains. Damian's usually allowed to keep brains.

    But it happens to all of them, reduced to being a specialist in one area of Bruce's expertise, while Bruce excels in them all. They become more like elements or manifestations of certain properties of Bruce rather than the characters with well-rounded skill sets (that at least Dick and Tim had in the old days - read less of the others). It reduces them to a role in the "family" I guess, instead of the fuller characters they are. Like I said, it doesn't happen all the time. But it happens too often.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    Sorry, BUT WHAT ABOUT TIM IS DARK?????????????

    Jason yes,Damian YES, Dick yes, BUT TIM NO...

    Tim was always also in YJ the friendly,funny guy...
    Maybe itís due to the fact that Tim got involved with the Batman and his crusade against crime and look how much that turned out for him going forward given the losses he had over the years ?

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    INCORRECT...

    NOTHING is fixed, the Future ALWAYS depends on what happens the Future..

    We have seen many futures:

    -Titans of Tomorrow (this happened in the Teen Titans Series and also in Rebirth) where Tim,Cassie,Conner,Lorena,the younger Shazam...take over the role of their mentors and become Superman,Wonder Woman,Aquawoman,Animal Man.....this is intact to some extend, because we have seen Titans of Tomorrow in Rebirth

    -Batman in Betlehem (this had several interpretations) the first one was that Damian becomes Batman and Conner becomes Superman and the two argue, but honor their mentors and meet each other at this day
    https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Kon-El_(Batman_in_Bethlehem)
    https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Damian_Wa..._in_Bethlehem)

    and the FUTURE keeps changing, for example neither Batman in Betlehem NOR Titans of Tomorrow included JONATHAN SAMUEL KENT until Rebirth...

    AND!!!! since Rebirth Titans of Tomorrow Conner and Titans of Tomorrow Cassie and Titans of Tomorrow Bart Allen are HEROES also in the FUTURE...


    Besides as far as I remind the current Tim Drake Future (Saviour) was also NOT a serial Killer, but he killed or have tried to kill Damian, because Damian became evil and he wanted to kill Batwoman,Jonathan and Damian in the present...



    So its also still out of Canon..because like the recent Titans of Tomorrow in Rebirth showed that Future can change and Conner,Cassie... are Heroes in the Future and NOT Villains who terrorize the Country..
    Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, but as someone else has said, try reading the original comics instead of fan wikis. As you can tell from the actual page of the comic in question, Terry is part of that future. Terry is part of the current DC future in multiple timelines. And if you had actually read any of the Titans of Tomorrow books or Red Robin, you would be aware that even before Morrison created Damian that there was a tombstone among Tim's victims for Ibn al Xu'ffasch aka Damian Wayne.

    Someone who jumps from universe to universe to murder children in order to prevent a particular future is a serial killer. Someone, who like Tim, jumps from timeline to timeline to disrupt or destroy another person's life as we saw Tim doing, especially with the intent to kill that individual is a serial killer. Heck, it's a serial killer trope that's frequently used in comics, science fiction, and horror.

    I get that for many people Tim is their self insert character, their Bella Swan. But anyone who read all of the Bat books including the two Azreal series between 2006 to the reboot knows that a) Batman RIP, Final Crisis, Battle for the Cowl, Blackest Night, Brightest Day, Bruce Wayne: The Road Home, the first part of Red Robin, that comic series with Conner Kent (Adventure Comics?), and the Morrison section of Batman and Robin happened over about two months, b) Bruce and Tim are gaslighting everyone because that's how they roll, c) Damian's entire time as Robin up to his major death (as opposed to all the minor ones shown and implied) was less than a year. He met Bruce on his tenth birthday and was dead before his eleventh.

    It's all in the comics, and really, there's no excuse for not tracking them down and reading them over a wiki. Most of them are available to purchase cheap digitally, at your local library through Hoopla or inter library loan, and for the more obscure yet critically plot important series there's always celebrating Talk Like a Pirate Day by being a pirate on the internet.
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  13. #88
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    J"ability to detach emotionally" doesn't mean you are dark, it just means you are more effective in certain situations. It's Tim's defense tactic ("Don't think too much about the past Dick, you'd be crushed under it" ) meaning while Dick can handle being Nightwing AND Batman even with the pain and guilt, Tim couldnt have. So that way he was the least dark in a family of angstbots.

    On the other hand when it comes to cases, it is good, but Tim is helpless when it comes to realising the reality around him. It's not just emotions it's reality. Tim's detachment is so....detached that:

    1. He's painfully unaware of how much a rich white boy he is and poor people has to wack him for it.
    2. He helps Bruce to detach from jason's death, but he never knew the real circumtances and "feelings" behind Bruce and Dick's fallout , Jason's death and thus the reason he even could be Robin. But Bruce and Dick withold issues from him so that he can be of help to them. Around the time when Jason came back, he realised he was maybe not as needed or loved as Jason, who he dimissed or victim -blamed any chance he got, thus depression.
    3. The entire RR where he's just completely detached from reality. He was unaware of Dick dealing with both Jason and Damian (Damian he thought "ruined" Robin and Jason was his fault), unaware of Babs teaching Steph, paranoia that he manages Gotham himself... It's no longer an ability, it's a pain to everyone around him.

    Tim's series (Late Robin and RR) are told from his skewed perspective of everything so it appears wrong and out of it in continuity with every other Batbooks. DC doesn't want to taint their self-insert, and that's how he descended to questionable morals and making 0 sense in reboot.

    Just because Bruce and Dick under editorial has to praise Tim always doesn't mean one had to believe them. Hush is a post 2000 comic and by then the entire Batfan has been retconned to the ground, and more modern comic tends to talk about the past in present terms, with a voice that's so self-insert it insults the characters. Since when did Dick fail to understand HIS OWN HAND-CREATED MANTLE? Tim changed the Robin name, doesn't mean Bruce fucking knew what it should and shouldnt be when he raised boys that needs help in the 40s and 80s.
    Last edited by nhienphan2808; 07-04-2019 at 09:10 PM.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhienphan2808 View Post
    J"ability to detach emotionally" doesn't mean you are dark, it just means you are more effective in certain situations. It's Tim's defense tactic ("Don't think too much about the past Dick, you'd be crushed under it" ) meaning while Dick can handle being Nightwing AND Batman even with the pain and guilt, Tim couldnt have. So that way he was the least dark in a family of angstbots.

    On the other hand when it comes to cases, it is good, but Tim is helpless when it comes to realising the reality around him. It's not just emotions it's reality. Tim's detachment is so....detached that:

    1. He's painfully unaware of how much a rich white boy he is and poor people has to wack him for it.
    2. He helps Bruce to detach from jason's death, but he never knew the real circumtances and "feelings" behind Bruce and Dick's fallout , Jason's death and thus the reason he even could be Robin. But Bruce and Dick withold issues from him so that he can be of help to them. Around the time when Jason came back, he realised he was maybe not as needed or loved as Jason, who he dimissed or victim -blamed any chance he got, thus depression.
    3. The entire RR where he's just completely detached from reality. He was unaware of Dick dealing with both Jason and Damian (Damian he thought "ruined" Robin and Jason was his fault), unaware of Babs teaching Steph, paranoia that he manages Gotham himself... It's no longer an ability, it's a pain to everyone around him.

    Tim's series (Late Robin and RR) are told from his skewed perspective of everything so it appears wrong and out of it in continuity with every other Batbooks. DC doesn't want to taint their self-insert, and that's how he descended to questionable morals and making 0 sense in reboot.

    Just because Bruce and Dick under editorial has to praise Tim always doesn't mean one had to believe them. Hush is a post 2000 comic and by then the entire Batfan has been retconned to the ground, and more modern comic tends to talk about the past in present terms, with a voice that's so self-insert it insults the characters. Since when did Dick fail to understand HIS OWN HAND-CREATED MANTLE? Tim changed the Robin name, doesn't mean Bruce fucking knew what it should and shouldnt be when he raised boys that needs help in the 40s and 80s.
    Detaching emotionally doesn't make someone dark, but every time Tim detaches himself emotionally he becomes dark.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Cyclist View Post
    Sorry for taking so long to get back to you, but as someone else has said, try reading the original comics instead of fan wikis. As you can tell from the actual page of the comic in question, Terry is part of that future. Terry is part of the current DC future in multiple timelines. And if you had actually read any of the Titans of Tomorrow books or Red Robin, you would be aware that even before Morrison created Damian that there was a tombstone among Tim's victims for Ibn al Xu'ffasch aka Damian Wayne.
    Its still incorrect.

    Like I said Future keeps changing and Future depends on the action in the PRESENT.

    If YOU read the Comics you saw that also as DC REBIRTH Tim didnt remember Conner and Titans of Tomorrow refused to reveal their identities to Clark as they arrived to save Jonathan Samuel Kent.
    As TITANS OF TOMORROW Tim Drake came back to the Present in Rebirth he talked about Conner to the PRESENT DC REBIRTH Tim who didnt remember at Conner and so TITANS OF TOMORROW Tim realized that the PRESENT was altered.

    This means that the DC REBIRTH Future could be another one as we saw, because the Timeline was manipulated by Dr. Manhattan and Barry.

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