Identity Crisis

[Swallowtail]

In the twenty plus years that Tim was Robin, how many times do you see Dick or Jason team up with Bruce compared to the twelve years that Damian has existed?

Outside of Devin Grayson's writing, prior to Damian, how many times did you see the family get together like they do now? Did you regularly see them getting together for movie night, portrait paintings, the weekly brunch, or just hanging out like we do now? To be fair, if you only read things with Tim in them and avoid books with Damian in them, you may have missed all of this.

Yeah, Chuck Dixon, Scott Beatty, Paul Dini, Anderson Gabranth, pre-Damian-as-Robin Morrison, Ed Brubaker...

Devin Greyson and Peter Tomasi hardly invented the concept of the Batfamily.

And the last time they had a family movie night was 2010. Not exactly a regular occurrence.

I like Damian just fine, but, come on, of course TimÂ’s popularity was hurt by His arrival. Tim was displaced from the role he was designed to play. If Duke had been successful in the way Damian was successful, if he had taken over as Robin and Damian had had to stay dead or change his name to Redbird to accommodate Duke, no doubt that would have hurt DamianÂ’s popularity too. What happened is that Duke lost the popularity contest and is now just about holding on as a supporting character in a team book.

[Arctic Cyclist]

Yeah, Chuck Dixon, Scott Beatty, Paul Dini, Anderson Gabranth, pre-Damian-as-Robin Morrison, Ed Brubaker...

Devin Greyson and Peter Tomasi hardly invented the concept of the Batfamily.

And the last time they had a family movie night was 2010. Not exactly a regular occurrence.

I like Damian just fine, but, come on, of course TimÂ’s popularity was hurt by His arrival. Tim was displaced from the role he was designed to play. If Duke had been successful in the way Damian was successful, if he had taken over as Robin and Damian had had to stay dead or change his name to Redbird to accommodate Duke, no doubt that would have hurt DamianÂ’s popularity too. What happened is that Duke lost the popularity contest and is now just about holding on as a supporting character in a team book.

Uh-huh. Even then, you don't see a lot of group family time under any of those writers with Dick, Tim, and everyone else just getting together and hanging out like you have since 2010. If you were go to go through the same time frame of twelve years and compare family actually hanging out and working together as a group, and Bruce teaming up with either Dick or Jason, you will find that it happens much more after Damian becomes Robin and in more books. Not that it happens much, and hasn't at all in the last year, but it still is more regular of an occurrence now than it used to be, and with a larger family.

Tim's popularity was hurt more by the deaths of his supporting characters, the annihilation of Cassandra Cain's character to prop him up, the advent of sexy Jason Todd the anti hero/anti villain, and his turning into a mini Bruce than he was by Damian's arrival. You can go to Comichron and see that in the sales, and why Damian keeps getting brought back from the dead like he's Sherlock Holmes at Reichenbach Falls.

Tim's popularity was hurt more by the Harry Potter books than by Damian as neither the writers and editorial at DC, nor the die hard Tim fans have realized that readers want characters who grow up and change. It doesn't have to be fast, but note how Damian fans like that he has aged. They want to see him become an adult, and happily pay money for it. It's why Dick was and is popular, and why Jason is popular. A character who is forever 16 is boring. The choice to keep Tim 16 after One Year Later was a mistake, and in an era where fans can access the internet and keep track of everything with ease, including digital access to all original sources, it is unwise to assume that they cannot follow a plot or do basic math. It hurts a character's popularity.

So go ahead and keep blaming Damian, but Damian was the final straw in the overloaded pile of mistakes made with Tim and ought to have boosted Tim as a character the same way he does others. The popularity crash was well on it's way years before Morrison introduced Damian, and you can see it when you look at the sales. Oh, and when we do talk about the Duke vs Damian popularity contest, it is important to remember that Duke had editorial support and the weight of the main Batman writer behind him. Damian only had Tomasi, and the rabid pack of fans who turn anything that Damian appears in, or is even mentioned in, into a gold mine. Or a sliver mine.

And it's not like Damian stole Tim fans...oh. Wait. Never mind. There are plenty of die hard Damian fans who started as Tim fans. Just not Damian fans who become die hard Tim fans. Might be a reason for that.

[dietrich]

All Excellent posts @ Arctic Cyclist and all accurate and Observable from the comics.

I always enjoy your indepth analysis and thoughts on Comics not just Damian. Wish you posted more often.

I'm not a fan of the term Gary Stu as it's often misapplied to characters especially those that a particular fan dislikes or knows very little about.

It's cool to Stan a particular Robin/character but it's not cool to put other characters down, misrepresent or make up bogus claims about rival characters in discussions just to justify ones dislike. It's okay to say "I don't like Damian". "I don't enjoy the lil ****" "I hate that he is Robin while my favourite isn't" whatever personal reason don't keep repeating the same incorrect claims.

personal opinions are one thing but info from the comics aren't subjective. Claims like "His skills are unearned" "He wasn't shown developing them" are easy to fact check.

Also to blame Damian for the reduced family interactions and team ups is not only incorrect but it's cruel.


Anyway back on topic, The robins got off pretty easy I think compared to some of the other heroes in HIC. Hal came off the worst in those confessionals

[Swallowtail]

Uh-huh. Even then, you don't see a lot of group family time under any of those writers with Dick, Tim, and everyone else just getting together and hanging out like you have since 2010. If you were go to go through the same time frame of twelve years and compare family actually hanging out and working together as a group, and Bruce teaming up with either Dick or Jason, you will find that it happens much more after Damian becomes Robin and in more books. Not that it happens much, and hasn't at all in the last year, but it still is more regular of an occurrence now than it used to be, and with a larger family.

Tim's popularity was hurt more by the deaths of his supporting characters, the annihilation of Cassandra Cain's character to prop him up, the advent of sexy Jason Todd the anti hero/anti villain, and his turning into a mini Bruce than he was by Damian's arrival. You can go to Comichron and see that in the sales, and why Damian keeps getting brought back from the dead like he's Sherlock Holmes at Reichenbach Falls.

Tim's popularity was hurt more by the Harry Potter books than by Damian as neither the writers and editorial at DC, nor the die hard Tim fans have realized that readers want characters who grow up and change. It doesn't have to be fast, but note how Damian fans like that he has aged. They want to see him become an adult, and happily pay money for it. It's why Dick was and is popular, and why Jason is popular. A character who is forever 16 is boring. The choice to keep Tim 16 after One Year Later was a mistake, and in an era where fans can access the internet and keep track of everything with ease, including digital access to all original sources, it is unwise to assume that they cannot follow a plot or do basic math. It hurts a character's popularity.

So go ahead and keep blaming Damian, but Damian was the final straw in the overloaded pile of mistakes made with Tim and ought to have boosted Tim as a character the same way he does others. The popularity crash was well on it's way years before Morrison introduced Damian, and you can see it when you look at the sales. Oh, and when we do talk about the Duke vs Damian popularity contest, it is important to remember that Duke had editorial support and the weight of the main Batman writer behind him. Damian only had Tomasi, and the rabid pack of fans who turn anything that Damian appears in, or is even mentioned in, into a gold mine. Or a sliver mine.

And it's not like Damian stole Tim fans...oh. Wait. Never mind. There are plenty of die hard Damian fans who started as Tim fans. Just not Damian fans who become die hard Tim fans. Might be a reason for that.

Yes, you got me there. Batman definitely hung out with Jason a lot less between 1989 and 2005 than he did after 2005. ItÂ’s not any less of an absurd argument than arguing that since almost all JasonÂ’s appearances 1989 to 2005 were hallucinations, memories or flashbacks percentage wise he actually spent more time with the Batfamily than he does now and should therefore go back to that status quo, but it is empirical fact.

Whether there are diehard Tim fans who became diehard Damian fans and no diehard Damian fans who became Tim fans, is however I think unverifiable.

[CPSparkles]

All Excellent posts @ Arctic Cyclist and all accurate and Observable from the comics.

I always enjoy your indepth analysis and thoughts on Comics not just Damian. Wish you posted more often.

I'm not a fan of the term Gary Stu as it's often misapplied to characters especially those that a particular fan dislikes or knows very little about.

It's cool to Stan a particular Robin/character but it's not cool to put other characters down, misrepresent or make up bogus claims about rival characters in discussions just to justify ones dislike. It's okay to say "I don't like Damian". "I don't enjoy the lil ****" "I hate that he is Robin while my favourite isn't" whatever personal reason don't keep repeating the same incorrect claims.

personal opinions are one thing but info from the comics aren't subjective. Claims like "His skills are unearned" "He wasn't shown developing them" are easy to fact check.

Also to blame Damian for the reduced family interactions and team ups is not only incorrect but it's cruel.


Anyway back on topic, The robins got off pretty easy I think compared to some of the other heroes in HIC. Hal came off the worst in those confessionals

And the thing is I've seen the same poster post the same thing about Damian on other Threads [on the batgirl and robin preferred origins thread was the most recent for example] and one the unearned part is a recurring reason given by Tim fans on here. It's frustrating. if you don't know for certain then don't post it. This could become another This is why Tim Drake is the only person, bar Batman that Ra's refers to as "Detective" which tells you all you need to know about his skills


How many times have you seen fans make that claim ? It's not true of course and we have the comic panels of Ra's calling Dick and Jason Detective but this has been repeated so many times that it's now part of the thing' s you should know about Tim Drake. It is even on Tim's Wiki.

Hal saying I don't even know what Will Power is was jarring. Why put that?

[TheCape]

And the thing is I've seen the same poster post the same thing about Damian on other Threads [on the batgirl and robin preferred origins thread was the most recent for example] and one the unearned part is a recurring reason given by Tim fans on here. It's frustrating. if you don't know for certain then don't post it. This could become another This is why Tim Drake is the only person, bar Batman that Ra's refers to as "Detective" which tells you all you need to know about his skills


How many times have you seen fans make that claim ? It's not true of course and we have the comic panels of Ra's calling Dick and Jason Detective but this has been repeated so many times that it's now part of the thing' s you should know about Tim Drake. It is even on Tim's Wiki.

Hal saying I don't even know what Will Power is was jarring. Why put that?

Probably because is like the only thing of note that happened to him since Identity Crisis and Yost run was well liked. Most people don't remember Nightwing Last Rites or Tynion's RH (in fact i think that most Jason fans want to forget Tynion's run).

[TheCape]

I know that you don't read anything with Damian in it, but Damian has been shown to have earned the role of Robin. All of his skills were shown being learned and hard earned as a child, and his accomplishments, when taken as a whole are unrealistic for his age, broken down individually fit into what child prodigies and Olympic gold medalists do in the same age range. He's consistently shown to have the same drive that is characteristic of prodigies and Olympians, notably the gymnasts, which Tim never has. Nothing Damian has is unearned.

Moreover, people had been waiting for Damian since before Tim was created. Son of the Demon, despite how quickly DC moved to strike it from continuity, was an immensely popular story. That's why both Ibn and Tallent were eagerly received in their books, and the boost in sales from Damian's introduction was shocking and resulted in his integration to the stories. Furthermore, a Sue/Stu stymies other canon characters and invalidates other stories. Damian doesn't, rather his introduction took stories such as Cass leading the League of Assassins which didn't make any sense whatsoever prior based on her skills and the long established rule that it had to be a male heir, and justified it by introducing Damian as the young male heir who could eventually be controlled by a future lover/wife like Margery and Tommen in Game of Thrones. It takes all the weirdness of the late Cass stories and cleans them up into logical character motivation, all the way to Cass getting out of Gotham to avoid the child she participated in grooming and then abandoned in order to allow Stephanie to grow. It even provides fantastic character development and motivation for Nyssa and Talia's relationships with each other and Cass.

Dick back in 2006 was almost killed off because he was no longer relevant as a character due to Tim. Damian's introduction took Dick from being stymied by Tim and reestablished Dick as an extraordinary leader, mentor, and detective.

Jason was full on villain struggling with the idea of redemption. Damian's presence with his past as an assassin allowed for us to see Jason decide to start taking on proteges and approach the character we see in Flashpoint, which is an inherently noble person who works hard to get people out of crime and into safe, new lives. Prior to that, Jason had to die in order for Tim to be created, and then he was always put down as a failure in order to prop Tim up.

Stephanie due to Tim going out of town and no longer being an issue in her life is shown growing and taking up the role of pseudo big sister to Damian, as does Kara in Super Girl. She ceases to be a love interest and grows into her own character, no longer a prop to show how wonderful and supportive Tim is.

With Bruce, we see him face down the prospect of being a parent by abdicating the role to Dick and running off to screw Selina. We see him on three separate occasions tell Damian he can't be Robin and can't live in Gotham. We see him finally start spending time with Damian because Talia says, "F&#%ing A. The kid had to fight me on his birthday every year since he was four in order to meet you, what does it take to get you to spend time with him? A half a billion dollar bounty? Let's try that. Then maybe kill him because screw it, this is messed up and we should not be parents."

We see Bruce and Dick constantly reminding Damian that he is replaceable, we see Bruce replacing Damian as Robin in everything but name first with Duke and now with Jarro. We saw in Damian: Son of Batman and Injustice: Gods Among Us that Bruce will kick Damian out of the house without hesitation. We also see Damian forcing Bruce to move on from his parents deaths...at least until Tom King took over the reins. There is nothing outside of Tim's narration to indicate that Damian destroyed Robin or invalidated by being Bruce's son, rather we see that Damian is held to a higher standard than other Robins while at the same time receiving less attention and affection from Bruce than other Robins.

At no point does Damian stymie any characters, like a Sue does, or outshine them in their own books. He doesn't really even outshine them in his own books, aside from Tim. War of the Robins shows Jason acting like an adult who understands that Damian's just an upset 10 year old looking for attention, as does Dick. Neither man comes off looking weaker because of Damian. Tim curb stomps Damian in Red Robin despite Damian's skills as a fighter being generally depicted as superior to Tim's. Tim is a stagnant character, and that has nothing to do with Damian as he has been used effectively to grow all the other characters he has been written with.

You are calling Damian a Stu simply because you don't like him, not because Damian meets any of the definitions of a Stu. When people say that Tim is a Stu, it's because Tim does meet many of the definitions of a Stu, including the blocking of other characters, outshining them in their own books, and having them go on and on about how wonderful and perfect he is, which is definitely not something that happens with Damian. Dick regularly says that Damian is an annoying little @#$ and Bruce warning people that Damian is a pain in the butt before they meet him is a running theme. Unlike Tim, Damian has never blocked a character's development or growth, had other characters sing his praises and downplay themselves in comparison to him, or was just handed the Robin role because he showed up and rang the doorbell. You have to have read Nightwing, Battle for the Cowl, and Azrael to know this, but Damian's becoming Robin was a result of negotiations between Dick and Talia along with the fact that Dick looked at Damian, saw himself at a similar age, and understood that Damian needed someone to save him from the darkness.

Tim becoming Batman is a bad thing. That is a fact. But Damian didn't block him as a character or destroy Tim's success, as we see other characters become more popular and successful because of Damian. Tim could have, should have grown. That he hasn't has less to do with Damian and more to do with the fact that he's a fundamentally flawed character who is rooted in Stu traits as a self insert for fans, and the fans won't accept him as anything but what Tim was in 1998.

1998 was a bad year, most of the wine from that vintage was corked.

While Josai opinions of Damian are way off base, i think that your going to far into the other direction.

Also was that whole thing about Damian and Cass being conected, she only took an isolated cell from the League when she went evil not the whole thing. My pre-flashpoint is rusty, but i don't remember any sort of connection between Damian and Cass being established before Gates of Gotham. That sounds more like fan theory.

[CPSparkles]

Damian’s skills are unearned. We were told he has all these abilities without being shown how he got them. A ten year old has no business fighting on par with the people he does. But people accept it bc he’s “son of Batman.”

His abilities are unearned

ItÂ’s not just Tim he replaces. How many times have we seen Dick team up with Bruce? Jason team up with Bruce? Since damianshowed up? Not as much.

Damian undermines the status of the other side kicks (as it relates to their role in the family) by simply existing.

When was the last time we saw the Batfamily truly be a family since Damian showed up? That camaderie has seriously decreased. IÂ’m not saying heÂ’s the primary cause but there is a correlation.

Everything about this is subjective anyways though. No ones right and no ones wrong. As long as comics lack definitive story telling and refuse to break the status quo people can interpret however they want to.

I interpret Damian as a character that is bad storytelling for the other characters in the Batfamily and his character shouldÂ’ve never existed much less come back to life

No everything is not subjective and you are wrong. Those highlighted parts can be easily verified there's tons of materials in canon that show these. They are objective.

Thankfully You have now been informed and you have the comics to check out what you claim we didn't see.
Comic panels, stories where we see damian earning his skills are there. It's not subjective. you are simply wrong, haven't read enough of his comics to know that we were shown Damian earning his skills in which case you were just assuming or purposefully choosing to ignore the many many panels and titles that show exactly what you seek.

[CPSparkles]

Probably because is like the only thing of note that happened to him since Identity Crisis and Yost run was well liked. Most people don't remember Nightwing Last Rites or Tynion's RH (in fact i think that most Jason fans want to forget Tynion's run).

That was an Epic moment. i felt Proud. It was like Young Robin has grown up but then constantly seeing this and after having to correct lord knows how many fans. It's now a pet peeve of mine. [Fans posting that claim Not the scene or the interaction with Ra's]

[TheCape]

That was an Epic moment. i felt Proud. It was like Young Robin has grown up but then constantly seeing this and after having to correct lord knows how many fans. It's now a pet peeve of mine. [Fans posting that claim Not the scene or the interaction with Ra's]

It was a gateway drug for many fans of the characther, so i get why it happens, at this point though i just want to move from that era, at least that YJ #5 seemed to head Tim in an interesting direction, but my hopes on Bendis aren't that hight.

[josai21]

No everything is not subjective and you are wrong. Those highlighted parts can be easily verified there's tons of materials in canon that show these. They are objective.

Thankfully You have now been informed and you have the comics to check out what you claim we didn't see.
Comic panels, stories where we see damian earning his skills are there. It's not subjective. you are simply wrong, haven't read enough of his comics to know that we were shown Damian earning his skills in which case you were just assuming or purposefully choosing to ignore the many many panels and titles that show exactly what you seek.

Yeah just gonna disagree. Did a brief scan of them and still feels unearned and pointless. I don't consider those comics as important or ones that matter for my interpretation. You may view them as important and in canon. I don't. And it doesn't matter. DC's goal is to maintain the status quo that will get them readers and viewers. In order to tell a good story though, they need a definitive ending to Batman..which they will never do.

So, I readwhat I like and disregard what I don't.

Damian is a bad character and his talent is unearned based on what I have read and interpreted. You're not going to change my mind. And I'm not going to change yours. Our views are equally valid.

If we were discussing math or science or morality etc. then I would agree there needs to be objectivity. But we aren't. We're discussing a form of entertainment that is slowly dying due to its inability to adhere to good story-telling standards (in addition to the digital age which is more of a reason than simply storytelling).

So...it is subjective.

You can argue Tim is going to make a bad batman by your standards. Your view is as equally valid as mine and I'm not going to try to change your mind. In the world of comics, there is no objectivity. If they wanted there to be, Bruce would've stayed dead and Dick and Damian would have continued as Batman and Robin.

[Arctic Cyclist]

While Josai opinions of Damian are way off base, i think that your going to far into the other direction.

Also was that whole thing about Damian and Cass being conected, she only took an isolated cell from the League when she went evil not the whole thing. My pre-flashpoint is rusty, but i don't remember any sort of connection between Damian and Cass being established before Gates of Gotham. That sounds more like fan theory.

Probably. I do tend to be fairly reactive, especially when I think readers miss the point. It's one of the reasons I was kicked out of a book club. That said, Tim isn't the perfect all knowing heir, and treating it like that's the only good end for him is wrong. Tim planned on getting out of the life, and Tim going back to his roots and being a researcher would be a good end for him. I don't know about him being a detective, but I do think a trip to college to have his ego crushed by online web based learning is needed and would make for a good couple of years. (OWL for anyone who hasn't been to college in the last twenty years, and for everyone else, I apologize for the flashbacks). Having him transition out of his teens needs to happen, and he needs to experience like the rest of us do that being 23 is the worst. As Jason clearly is.

Cass and Damian's time in the League is something that was never explored because anyway you look at it, she knew he existed, knew he was Bruce's son, and did not say anything about him when she came back to Gotham. Nada.

We know that it was Talia who sent Deathstroke to bring Cass in, and encouraged the fractions and infighting in the League to weaken it to the point that Leviathan could eventually take over. We also know that the League had a policy of no one with a vagina could be it's leader. Therefore the inference that Cass was brought in to eventually become Margery to Damian's Joffery is easy to make, particularly with Damian's rampant crush on her in Batgirl. Fan theory? Probably, all though I prefer to think of it as extrapolation and a hypothesis to explain all the really questionable editorial and writing choices.

There is no way around the fact that fascism is evil and people who embrace it or think it is a good idea are evil. History has shown it over and over again, which means that Tim embracing it equals the ultimate failure of Batman far beyond Damian's untreated depression leading to nuclear disaster.

[byrd156]

Tim doesn’t even understand Robin , how can he be a good Batman?

Lol what does this even mean?

[TheCape]

Probably. I do tend to be fairly reactive, especially when I think readers miss the point. It's one of the reasons I was kicked out of a book club. That said, Tim isn't the perfect all knowing heir, and treating it like that's the only good end for him is wrong. Tim planned on getting out of the life, and Tim going back to his roots and being a researcher would be a good end for him. I don't know about him being a detective, but I do think a trip to college to have his ego crushed by online web based learning is needed and would make for a good couple of years. (OWL for anyone who hasn't been to college in the last twenty years, and for everyone else, I apologize for the flashbacks). Having him transition out of his teens needs to happen, and he needs to experience like the rest of us do that being 23 is the worst. As Jason clearly is.

Cass and Damian's time in the League is something that was never explored because anyway you look at it, she knew he existed, knew he was Bruce's son, and did not say anything about him when she came back to Gotham. Nada.

We know that it was Talia who sent Deathstroke to bring Cass in, and encouraged the fractions and infighting in the League to weaken it to the point that Leviathan could eventually take over. We also know that the League had a policy of no one with a vagina could be it's leader. Therefore the inference that Cass was brought in to eventually become Margery to Damian's Joffery is easy to make, particularly with Damian's rampant crush on her in Batgirl. Fan theory? Probably, all though I prefer to think of it as extrapolation and a hypothesis to explain all the really questionable editorial and writing choices.

There is no way around the fact that fascism is evil and people who embrace it or think it is a good idea are evil. History has shown it over and over again, which means that Tim embracing it equals the ultimate failure of Batman far beyond Damian's untreated depression leading to nuclear disaster.

I get the passion, just feel that you were exaggerating some things. I agreed that Tim shouldn't be Batman and that i do like the idea of him retiring, although i also kind of partial to him becoming a private investigator that resolve mysteries for fun or at least put him in something more akin to Gotham Central, because Noir is something that the batbooks don't do much these days. I just don't think that Damian is responsible for a lot of the changes, the only one that really benefited for his creation were Dick and Steph (i would like to say Bruce, but i think that is just matter of time before he get into the same emotional abuse that he has been inflicting on his allies since the turn of the century), the rest weren't really that affected.

As for Cass and the league, i always though that Talia simply send her against Nyssa as a way to get revenge on her for what happened the Death and the Maidens (and i'm the only one that remember the disturbing deaths and resurrections with Nyssa embracing and naked Talia at the end?) and then keep her around because someone with her skill is an useful aset, makes more sense to me than that was her motivation and nothing indicated that Cass meet Damian there when she was under mind-control, especially because according to Beechen mini, Cass was only the leader of an small cell, not the entire league. Chances are that she found about him soon after recovering and never really interacted until Gates of Gotham.

[CPSparkles]

Yeah just gonna disagree. Did a brief scan of them and still feels unearned and pointless. I don't consider those comics as important or ones that matter for my interpretation. You may view them as important and in canon. I don't. And it doesn't matter. DC's goal is to maintain the status quo that will get them readers and viewers. In order to tell a good story though, they need a definitive ending to Batman..which they will never do.

So, I readwhat I like and disregard what I don't.

Damian is a bad character and his talent is unearned based on what I have read and interpreted. You're not going to change my mind. And I'm not going to change yours. Our views are equally valid.

If we were discussing math or science or morality etc. then I would agree there needs to be objectivity. But we aren't. We're discussing a form of entertainment that is slowly dying due to its inability to adhere to good story-telling standards (in addition to the digital age which is more of a reason than simply storytelling).

So...it is subjective.

You can argue Tim is going to make a bad batman by your standards. Your view is as equally valid as mine and I'm not going to try to change your mind. In the world of comics, there is no objectivity. If they wanted there to be, Bruce would've stayed dead and Dick and Damian would have continued as Batman and Robin.

Tec ~1004 Batman and Robin mentioned his mum and the how she handled his education. What happens to his tutors.

Batman and Robin both volumes Multiple issues

Batman Inc

Robin Son of Batman shows and and tells you what he had to suffer to gain those skills. The terrible things he had to do to prove himself worthy. His year of Blood. The title is basically his quest to undone some of the Damage he did in his year of Blood

Rebirth Deathstroke [two issues ago literally had info and scenes of what he went through to gain those skills]

Rebirth TT shows and tells us how Ra's trained him and the demons fist.We see what happens when one fails .

Supersons.

These are just a few of the titles that show and give details of how he gained those skills and he started early. Once he was out of the womb.

I don't know what books you consider canon or important or how you can still claim his skills are unearned when there's literally lots of comics that prove you wrong.

This isn't subjective since it's there and in colour on so many comics. You do you.

I never said anything about Tim making a Bad batman.