MCU Theory: How the recent comics are alluding to what's/who's next for the MCU

[Frontier]

The buyout was absolutely nothing to do with superhero movies.

I know, but they were a natural buyproduct nevertheless .

[jackolover]

Myself? I think the MU comics are an amalgam of MCU, Secret Wars 2015, and Dark Reign when Secret Empire was written. It’s still Secret Wars 2015 with all the various sectors containing Ultrons, Atlanteans, Mutants, Inhumans, Kingpins New York, 2099, Weirdworld, Supreme Society(?), OML, Miles Morales’ Ultimate Manhattan, etc. All this was carryover from Secret Wars, so it’s not the original 616 anymore anyway. When did Wakanda ever have a space empire? Reality was changed.

[JKtheMac]

I know, but they were a natural buyproduct nevertheless .

I have non-comic book friends who enjoy superhero movies as much as me. I am sure we all do. One of the things I hear about X-Men movies is “why does everyone hate the mutants in those films?” Now I find this surprising, because I thought the movies made this clear, but if you look at it from a wider perspective of superhero movies maybe it is confusing. I chatted about this with them, and they are also frustrated by superhero movies where the protagonist is hunted as a villain. I guess some of the tropes of these narratives are not as clearly understood as we think. Anyway, my point is that bringing this hated and feared narrative into the MCU might be very difficult and potentially damaging to the franchise.

Look at the current ‘Age of X-Man’ story. Exploring the notion deeply sometimes takes separation. I believe we generally compartmentalise the whole franchise and keep the difficulty of the fear and hate narrative separate. When we have crossovers like AvX they necessitate a redrawing of the distinction between superhero’s and mutants. The battle lines have to be carefully defined so as not to highlight the issue. It becomes about mutant distinction and sometimes mutant survival as opposed to more general oppression and suppression.

It is entirely possible that when Dan Buckley called Hickman, they discussed the movie situation. We should never assume that just because Feige doesn’t have to take notes from Marvel Entertainment, that he doesn’t return their calls, or discuss problems with them.

[JKtheMac]

When did Wakanda ever have a space empire? Reality was changed.

I am guessing you are not actually reading Black Panther.

[Blind Wedjat]

Conspiracy theories often arise when people don't know how something works and they try to make sense of it in the worst way possible.

Let's look at Black Panther for instance:

- The new ongoing BP series by Coates came out a month after Civil War dropped. Marvel announced a BP film in 2013. Going by how much Marvel Studios is successful compared to Marvel comics, I'd say Marvel comics saw that as an opportunity to revive the character before the solo film came out.

- The BP movie came out in 2018, after the comic had been going for almost a year. Aside from T'Challa's suit ability and a few aesthetic choices, the film has no clear influence on the movie. The film drew from other BP runs in regards to story, characterisation, and aesthetics while also using real world African tribe designs, languages and cultures as well as unique and common ideas on Afrofuturism and Afropunk. Since comics are ongoing it makes sense for a whole movie team (producers, writers, directors, actors, production and costume designers) to look at a recent comic for inspiration, as well as old ones. Therefore saying that comic was made to serve as a basis for the film doesn't make much sense.

- After the BP movie being bigger than everyone expected, we got two new BP titles: Rise of the Black Panther and Killmonger. Rise clearly takes inspiration from the film ("Wakanda Forever is used in the comic) with reimagining several characters, especially Killmonger. The Killmonger comic even takes this further, with the art completely reimagining the character to look like Michael B Jordan did, right down to the short dreads and fade, and the scars, and the motivation and costume. Both writers outright said the film was a major inspiration and the writer of Killmonger stated he pitched Killmonger because of the film.

This is clear evidence that Marvel Studios uses and considers Marvel comics as source material, but Marvel comics uses the MCU as inspiration and opportunities to make a quick buck, cashing in on Marvel Studios' success.

[JKtheMac]

Blind Wedjat, you are severely underestimating how long it takes for the production of both Conic books and Movies. Going by release dates is not very informative. We know for a fact that both Coates and stelfreeze were allowed access to many of the preproduction decisions of the movie. There are multiple points of synergy between them. Interviews make this explicit.

By the time the Black Panther comic was announced it had been in writing and preproduction for at least a year. In the early interviews Coates openly discussed the influence of the movie but took pains to make clear he was telling a different story. That’s plot stuff. Irrelevant to synergy concerns. He had already written 12 issues at that stage and was also open about how the early issues had gone through revisions.

There is not a single shred of conspiracy theory in this. What’s the conspiracy? A writer was close to the production of a movie? How is that a conspiracy? Look back a bit further and JMS was actually hired to write a comic that he was involved in writing for the upcoming Thor movie.

Synergy is not a bad thing.

[JKtheMac]

Lets examine the Black panther thing closer, because sometimes the synergy gets lost in interviews. For example we have Stelfreeze saying this:

It’s kind of funny because we don’t even talk to each other, us and the movie guys. But what’s really cool is that we both went in separate directions, but ended up in the same place on several things.

Yet we have the production designer Meinerding saying that Stelfreeze's design was one of his two touchstones on the design of the Black Panther suit. So its not "kind of funny" it is direct inspiration. I would be shocked if Meinerding didn't see the comic book preproduction drawings from Stelfreeze well before #1 hit the stands in April 2016.

We can tentatively work out a timetable of mutual influences.

Coogler and Cole were first linked to the movie around Oct 2015. We know Coates stepped back for a while but it is conceivable that Coogler and Cole were first introduced to the earliest Black Panther work of Coates and Stelfreeze during this phase.

In July 2016 Coogler responded the the question about Coates influencing the movie with “Absolutely, absolutely...” and goes on to talk about the political influences. Now consider the fact that at that point only three issues of Coates's book had been released. Also the movie was only six months away from filming. Quite a few preproduction decisions would already have been made and the movie script would be pretty well developed by then. In the book launch interviews, Coates was talking about knowing the story of the movie.

We also know from Meinerding the nanosuit technology was Coogler's idea. For that to have influenced Coates which it clearly did, we are looking at a relatively early date when their ideas cross-pollinated. The earliest preproduction drawings that have any relation to the finished movie were 2014 (mostly for Civil War), which from the Meinerding interviews would have been more Kirby inspired so the earliest cross-pollination would again be some time in the last quarter of 2015. Possibly just before the final Coogler pitch there may have been some discussion between Coogler and Coates, or possibly some less formal information flow between them, but it would seem to be a two-way flow.

Stelfreeze in #1 talks about the script inspiring his art choices so whenever Meinerding saw the designs Coates was already scriptwriting. Indeed Stelfreeze was called in only after Coates had produced a story treatment. In the backmatter of #1 Stelfreeze talks about Vibranium based technology being partly about storing kinetic energy, which he presumably got from the Coates script and yet this seems to have been inspired by Coogler's choices for nanotech with Vibranium as a kind of energy storage.

[Frontier]

I have non-comic book friends who enjoy superhero movies as much as me. I am sure we all do. One of the things I hear about X-Men movies is “why does everyone hate the mutants in those films?” Now I find this surprising, because I thought the movies made this clear, but if you look at it from a wider perspective of superhero movies maybe it is confusing. I chatted about this with them, and they are also frustrated by superhero movies where the protagonist is hunted as a villain. I guess some of the tropes of these narratives are not as clearly understood as we think. Anyway, my point is that bringing this hated and feared narrative into the MCU might be very difficult and potentially damaging to the franchise.

I think it would be something different from how the MCU handles things where the heroes in the MCU are all generally popular and not too controversial.

Like, once Ruffalo took over they downplayed a lot of the Hulk's negative traits and why people were so afraid/scared of him. It popped up again in Age of Ultron, but that required brainwashing. It was a far cry from the Incredible Hulk approach where he was still the misunderstood monster instead of an Avenger.

Even Spider-Man seems way more popular in the MCU then he is in the comics, but that might be because the Bugle hasn't come after him yet.

But I think as a whole most people probably get what the "hated and feared" Mutant allegory is going for. I'm not sure how they might apply it to the MCU, if they even will at all, but it would be interesting to see.

It is entirely possible that when Dan Buckley called Hickman, they discussed the movie situation. We should never assume that just because Feige doesn’t have to take notes from Marvel Entertainment, that he doesn’t return their calls, or discuss problems with them.

I think he might be a little too busy for that kind of stuff .

Synergy is not a bad thing.

Depends on the synergy.

[Mike_Murdock]

Lets examine the Black panther thing closer, because sometimes the synergy gets lost in interviews.

For what it's worth, I think we've agreed on this point. The movies draw influences from the comics, even recent comics. My dispute if whether the people of the movies ever tell the comic writers what their future plans are.

[JKtheMac]

For what it's worth, I think we've agreed on this point. The movies draw influences from the comics, even recent comics. My dispute if whether the people of the movies ever tell the comic writers what their future plans are.

Well my tentative timeline is predicated upon Coates taking inspiration from an unpublished idea that Coogler had. One that Stelfeeze believed came from the comic scripts but Coates would presumably be able to confirm if asked directly. The kinetic energy suit is just one point of synergy which flowed both ways at the conceptual stage for both Coates and Coogler.

Unfortunately the fan's sensitivity to these issues is so out of control, that Coates had to couch the synergies. It would primarily have been a movie spoiler, which has become a capital crime in modern years, and it would have been a red rag to the bull that is fans seeking evidence that the comics are somehow becoming secondary to movies, which they are not. Coogler didn't have to couch his influences beacuse fans accept the flow in that direction more readily.

When I have some time I will go digging for the Coates interview where he very tentatively acknowledges he was in communication with Coogler. (Unless someone has the link handy.)

[JKtheMac]

I think he might be a little too busy for that kind of stuff .

Pretty sure Buckley and Feige are both very busy people, but I would be willing to bet they talk professionally on a regular basis. Unfortunately neither are in a position to admit it because of fan sensitivity over a perceived issue that doesn't exist. Just like the "total shut out" that Jeph Loeb supposedly has, and the animosity that Feige is supposed to have with Amy Pascal despite being friends. More obviously David Gabriel wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't gather information on the movies before we got them.

Like I said earlier, this desire to make these relationships antagonistic is very real amongst fandom. That doesn't make it real, but it makes marketing a minefield. The party line becomes "don't worry folks, nobody is telling anyone else what to do" and yet every tiny hint of information flow from the movies to the comics becomes embroiled in a narrative that they are being told what to do and that this is terrible.

[Frontier]

Pretty sure Buckley and Feige are both very busy people, but I would be willing to bet they talk professionally on a regular basis. Unfortunately neither are in a position to admit it because of fan sensitivity over a perceived issue that doesn't exist. Just like the "total shut out" that Jeph Loeb supposedly has, and the animosity that Feige is supposed to have with Amy Pascal despite being friends. More obviously David Gabriel wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't gather information on the movies before we got them.

Like I said earlier, this desire to make these relationships antagonistic is very real amongst fandom. That doesn't make it real, but it makes marketing a minefield. The party line becomes "don't worry folks, nobody is telling anyone else what to do" and yet every tiny hint of information flow from the movies to the comics becomes embroiled in a narrative that they are being told what to do and that this is terrible.

I don't sense any antagonism or bad blood, just that there are different corporate structures and needs that each caters to and don't generally need to involve the other in.

[bomaya]

I love the use of Mephisto recently and hope it is part of an ongoing connected plot. Which issue of Deadpool was he in?

[JKtheMac]

I don't sense any antagonism or bad blood, just that there are different corporate structures and needs that each caters to and don't generally need to involve the other in.

Without animosity there is no reason to suspect they don’t cooperate.

[Mike_Murdock]

The MCU's desire for secrecy and the fact that they're busy would be reasons they don't communicate.