The Complex

[remydat]

The problem that others have stated is taking something rational and that makes perfect business sense and then using it as evidence that Marvel will do something that doesn't make business sense.

1. Devoting more promotion and resources to properties that make more money is logical.

2. Outright canceling a property that still makes money doesn't make business sense.

3. Turning mutants into inhumans for the purpose of trying to gain control of popular mutants is asinine because there is no way it can work legally based on the contract with Fox.

[cc008]

The problem that others have stated is taking something rational and that makes perfect business sense and then using it as evidence that Marvel will do something that doesn't make business sense.

1. Devoting more promotion and resources to properties that make more money is logical.

2. Outright canceling a property that still makes money doesn't make business sense.

3. Turning mutants into inhumans for the purpose of trying to gain control of popular mutants is asinine because there is no way it can work legally based on the contract with Fox.

Bingo. Fox has rights to characters. Wolverine is an Avenger. Has been for a while.. but Fox has the rights to him. Making him an Avenger in the comics doesn't allow Marvel Studios to now make a Wolverine movie.

[Sutekh]

Bingo. Fox has rights to characters. Wolverine is an Avenger. Has been for a while.. but Fox has the rights to him. Making him an Avenger in the comics doesn't allow Marvel Studios to now make a Wolverine movie.

Yeah, that's how I understand it as well. Anyone whose already appeared in an X-movie is Fox's to play with. Changing Storm into an Inhuman isn't going to get her back, anymore than making the comic book Storm an Asgardian would. Changing someone Fox hasn't touched, like Toro, into a non-mutant, on the other hand, probably makes him fair game (not that Fox had shown the slightest interest in non-X-mutants like Cloak and Dagger, Toro, etc.).

It's all tangled up anyway.

Mutants only exist in 616 because the Celestials modified humanity, and we just saw Celestials in a Marvel movie. The Fantastic Four, Hulk, Spider-Man, etc. only have super-powers, because, instead of dying upon exposure to cosmic rays, gamma radiation and / or radioactive spider venom, humanity's potential for mutation allowed them to mutate, making them, if not actual mutants, who would have expressed anyway as teenagers, at least 'latent mutants,' the sorts who, in the Days of Future Past future in the comics, were forbidden to breed, but not dragged away to camps and imprisoned or killed. The Inhumans were Kree attempts at getting around their own genetic limitations, since the Celestials *didn't* modify them and give them the potential for mutation (or they lost it somehow? I don't even remember at this point...), making them just a different flavor of mutant (artificially stimulated X-genetic expression like happened to the FF, Spidey, Hulk, etc.)...

Obviously neither Fox nor Marvel (nor Sony) want to get into that can of worms.

Technically, anyone in the 616 universe who has super-powers and isn't Asgardian (or some other race) or using magic or ultra-technology/cybernetics or something, is either a mutant or a mutate (latent mutant, jump started to the big leagues by some triggering radiation or whatever).

[Josh]

I've never poste, but I feel like I should give an outsider's thoughts


What marvel is doing, in a way, is crappy. No doubt. But I feel like people are going a tad over board.


It's business, it sucks that it hurts the fans, but it's business. There not much we can do.


The thing that bugs me is, the x men are all about inclusion. All about being loved and fitting in the world. Find your place in the big picture, yet I've read some people on here hate it when mutants are pushed outside the x men line of books. Wouldn't spreading the mutant love be a good thing? Even if they joint he avenger, if that character gets more love, isn't that good? I've read some kind of mean stuff about how they don't like the x men branching and I know I am changing subject somewhat, but I need to get this out there.

I think thing it's a good thing they're spreading, and I think we should be okay with that. This is what Xavier wanted, I fell. Acceptance. isn't that good?

[IdaqiBeauty]

Facts are facts. I'm sure that if Tom could take back what he said, he'd do it in a heartbeat. But now we know.

[Emerald_616]

I don't give a rat's a$$ about Brevoort's answer and the lack of Marvel Marketing Muscle behind the X-Books.

My complaint is that they could be telling AMAZING stories and doing whatever the heck they want with the X-Books, but they aren't, under the guise of not creating ideas for FOX.
Well FOX has over 50 YEARS of stories to pick from, and they're probably going to adapt all of the iconic Claremont and 90s stories before they even think about looking at the current books for much inspiration. And by the time FOX gets a film written and shot, whatever is currently out in the comics won't be current anymore.

In short, they could still make the X-Books wonderful, compelling reads, but they're not. I read everything from Marvel NOW! through Battle of the Atom and a little beyond, and only Astonishing, Bendis Uncanny, Spurrier Legacy, and X-Factor stood out to me. The jury is still out on All-New Marvel NOW!

[coveredinbees]

"Evidence" for what? That the X-Men aren't as big at Marvel as they used to be? Nobody's arguing against that point. I just want to know why that apparently means such horrible things for the future. What does he think this portends for the future of the X-books? All I hear is a bunch mindless fear mongering, but no specific concerns, which makes it pretty hard to have an intelligent debate.

It's a slippery slope. Brevoort's statement, and Bendis' revelation "I was told when I started writing the X-Men that there is a very small part of the readership that feels very persecuted," tell us Marvel carry a heavy contempt for the X-Fans and a light interest in pursuing quality X-Men stories. It is not so unreasonable that this information, coupled with tentative confirmation Alex Summers ( Marvel's premiere mutant) is turning evil, to conclude this is the end of days.

[LeonardEugenius]

I second this. Only name calling and bad vibes have come of this so far. And the way the word persecution is being thrown around is pretty sad.

I understand you might want a steady logical conversation, but that just isn't happening right now. Too many people have their pride invested in this. This is doing nothing for community unity. Even I was dragged into this last night and I don't really even have a side.

Lobbying for a thread to be closed does nothing but introduce more animosity and further divides what you've stated to be a divisive issue. How is that helpful? Why not worry about personal responsibility and provide a positive voice in the discussion? It seems a bit presumptuous to use your personal examination of this thread's potential as the sole deciding factor for its longevity.

I have a problem with YOU not articulating YOUR position. There are many perfectly valid arguments(mainly directed at you) that have yet to be countered in any intelligent way.

You started this thread. Keep it alive by contributing to the discussion or let it die, but don't perpetuate a bunch of pointless babble.

I think I've articulated my points very clearly, and I'm sorry if I feel otherwise. When the idea of Marvel diminishing the X-Men's role in comics due to the movie rights first began to circulate, the response from a large portion of posters and the industry professionals was disbelief and ridicule. The majority of posters didn't believe that Marvel would ever make decisions in comics based on the films and even mocked the other posters for being so "crazy" and "paranoid". The comic professionals mocked fans for asking questions about these issues. They vehemently denied that anything was remotely possible. There have been tons of articles, interviews, promotional material, etc since then indicating the exact opposite of what editorial regurgitated time after time. Even if the subject changed weekly, the same attitudes were presented from a large number of posters and the comics professionals: label anyone who believes that Marvel is doing exactly what Marvel is doing as crazy and berate them. These attitudes helped foster more disbelief about any sort of change coming for the X-Men and encourage the trivialization of the fan base. For years there's been all sorts of running jokes about X-Fans that colored the whole fandom in a negative light, further underscoring the resentment of Marvel editorial for its largest fan base. Now, we have Brevoort stating what he has outright denied for years. Marvel's Senior Vice President of Publishing confirmed what he, industry professionals, and a portion of the fan base belittled and berated fans for believing. Even now that we have confirmation about the company's focus, people are still trying to find a way to tear anyone down who sees the relevance in this. This isn't about contributing to paranoia, this is about examining the facts and drawing the correct assumptions. There is no persecution complex. There is no hyperbolic outrage. What exists here is an appropriate reaction to the events that have unfolded.

I don't think Marvel is cancelling the X-Men, but I do think it's very likely they'll undergo some major change that will cripple them as a franchise under the guise of creative decisions. I think that the comics professionals will deny any sort of change until it's about to happen and then retreat behind some "LoL! Tricked ya" sort of stance. Posters entitled to disagree or support Marvel's decision, even if it's incredibly contradictory given that a number of them said this kind of thing was preposterous and would never happen. Marvel can do whatever they want with their properties, and I would hope they would factor consumer interests into those decisions. I also hope that they can be a bit more honest with media/fans and not lash out at those would voice their concern.

[Ultimate Spider-Fan]

It's a slippery slope. Brevoort's statement, and Bendis' revelation "I was told when I started writing the X-Men that there is a very small part of the readership that feels very persecuted," tell us Marvel carry a heavy contempt for the X-Fans and a light interest in pursuing quality X-Men stories. It is not so unreasonable that this information, coupled with tentative confirmation Alex Summers ( Marvel's premiere mutant) is turning evil, to conclude this is the end of days.

I don't see how either statement conveys "a heavy contempt for the X-Fans and a light interest in pursuing quality X-Men stories". Brevort's statement just voices what many have suspected, that Marvel is more likely to push franchises which they have total control over. And Bendis' statement hardly conveys contempt for X-Fans, it's more like a warning he was given and is only referring to a "small part" of the fan base. As for the Alex Summers thing, that's only a rumor about a story that hasn't even begun yet and we have no clue how it's going to play out.

BTW, Calling this "the end of days" is exactly the type of hyperbole and hysteria many of us have been talking about.

[Gorthon]

It's odd that the people who say there is nothing to discuss, also seem to be the ones who don't stop talking. If you look at this thread and think there is nothing here for you to talk about, why don't you leave?

I don't know how much I'd like an MCU X-Men film. I LIKE the darker and more introspective approach Fox has taken with the series, whereas if they were under Marvel control we'd be getting 2 hours of quippy one-liners.

Personally I prefer the MCU stuff to the Fox stuff. Yes, the MCU stuff is colorful candy, but the "deep/brooding" feel of the X-men series has not aged well because frankly it's not nearly as deep or introspective as it likes to pretend to be. First Class was great because it moved away from that. Days of Futures Past worked more on a MCU-style spectacle level, but the brooding Xavier/Mystique just felt faked/forced to me. MCU material feels like honest and earnest work, often times the Fox material has "marketed to angsty teenagers" feel to it. I'd take clever one-liners over empty philosophical posturing.

That said, I HAVE MCU movies so I don't especially have any particular need to see X-Men done in the same fashion. Outside of the implications of what it means for the comics, I would much rather have each arm of Marvel have a unique creative vision behind it. Sadly, with the success of Avengers it seems like they are going to go down that path (most obviously with Amazing Spider-Man, but we'll see with Fox does with the FF).

Re:the subject and the Breevort quote. Well, that's disappointing, but not entirely surprising. And I do think there is some real foreboding elements to the statement, if they view a cross-promotional situation with Fox a losing position.

X-men, however, I see as being fairly safe. The properties can be worked into other titles (re:Uncanny Avengers) and honestly, it always felt wrong how (during their heyday) they were in a bubble of their own. I wouldn't mind if the X-Men brand became mixed into more and more properties, especially ones that could use the help. It can't be marginalized that, while Spider-Man and Wolverine are characters that won't show up in the MCU they were an important element to making the characters that would make up the MCU more successful. So while they might not be the X-Men (or Spider-Man) of the 90s for awhile, they'll still command sway in the comics.

The Fantastic Four on the other hand are a bit trickier. They won't have the marketing pull if thrown into another property and while mutants make sense as a common element throughout the universe, the FF are not quite as ubiquitous. I mean, I guess "science," but really there are plenty of other scientists to choose from.

[Ultimate Spider-Fan]

Lobbying for a thread to be closed does nothing but introduce more animosity and further divides what you've stated to be a divisive issue. How is that helpful? Why not worry about personal responsibility and provide a positive voice in the discussion? It seems a bit presumptuous to use your personal examination of this thread's potential as the sole deciding factor for its longevity.



I think I've articulated my points very clearly, and I'm sorry if I feel otherwise. When the idea of Marvel diminishing the X-Men's role in comics due to the movie rights first began to circulate, the response from a large portion of posters and the industry professionals was disbelief and ridicule. The majority of posters didn't believe that Marvel would ever make decisions in comics based on the films and even mocked the other posters for being so "crazy" and "paranoid". The comic professionals mocked fans for asking questions about these issues. They vehemently denied that anything was remotely possible. There have been tons of articles, interviews, promotional material, etc since then indicating the exact opposite of what editorial regurgitated time after time. Even if the subject changed weekly, the same attitudes were presented from a large number of posters and the comics professionals: label anyone who believes that Marvel is doing exactly what Marvel is doing as crazy and berate them. These attitudes helped foster more disbelief about any sort of change coming for the X-Men and encourage the trivialization of the fan base. For years there's been all sorts of running jokes about X-Fans that colored the whole fandom in a negative light, further underscoring the resentment of Marvel editorial for its largest fan base. Now, we have Brevoort stating what he has outright denied for years. Marvel's Senior Vice President of Publishing confirmed what he, industry professionals, and a portion of the fan base belittled and berated fans for believing. Even now that we have confirmation about the company's focus, people are still trying to find a way to tear anyone down who sees the relevance in this. This isn't about contributing to paranoia, this is about examining the facts and drawing the correct assumptions. There is no persecution complex. There is no hyperbolic outrage. What exists here is an appropriate reaction to the events that have unfolded.

I don't think Marvel is cancelling the X-Men, but I do think it's very likely they'll undergo some major change that will cripple them as a franchise under the guise of creative decisions. I think that the comics professionals will deny any sort of change until it's about to happen and then retreat behind some "LoL! Tricked ya" sort of stance. Posters entitled to disagree or support Marvel's decision, even if it's incredibly contradictory given that a number of them said this kind of thing was preposterous and would never happen. Marvel can do whatever they want with their properties, and I would hope they would factor consumer interests into those decisions. I also hope that they can be a bit more honest with media/fans and not lash out at those would voice their concern.

I don't understand what you're talking about when you say "diminishing the X-Men's role in comics". The X-Men have always kind of existed in their own little bubble in the MU, especially since they started to get really popular in the mid-80s. The X-Men have only played a significant role in a handful of Marvel events going back to those days. Plus, the X-Men were main players in an event just a few years ago and have two big events coming up this fall, so I don't think they're any more marginalized than they ever were.

[AcesX1X]

they were played as villains in the last big company-wide crossover, incompetents in their last "in-house" crossover, and will be played again as villains in the next company-wide crossover. funny that

[motherofpearl1]

I think X Men's fall from grace started under Joe Q and has worsened under his successors. I always remember his snotty comments of 'don't like, don't buy' when some fans admitted they were disappointed with the changes his editorship brought to the comics. It struck me as odd that an EIC would actively encourage people not to buy his products, but it makes perfect sense if they intend to eventually get rid of said products.

Post Ultimatum, UFF ceased to exist now the same is happening to their 616 counterparts. Cataclysm saw the end of Ultimate X Men. It doesn't bode well for Marvel's Merry Mutants whichever way you look at it.

[pro]

Fox has rights to characters.

Oh cool finally someone who read the contract.
Can you tell us exactly which characters are named in the contract?

[megaharrison]

X-Men are being partially marginalized. They have tons of solo books, because they sell. However they are being pushed out of the "shared" Marvel Universe, largely because of movie reasons and Marvel execs don't have much enthusiasm or eagerness to incorporate them into much anymore. And the lack of marketing/advertising for them is very much apparent. It's feeling like Marvel is sort of just going through the motions with the X-Men, and is using them as a legacy cash-cow while simultaneously shoving Inhumans and GOTG down our throats.

F4 however are facing full marginalization.