The Complex

[Confuzzled]

There are a few mutants who never associated themselves with the X-Men or any of their off-shoots until this decade. Some of those examples include Typhoid Mary, Molly Hayes and Squirrel Girl (whose X-gene has now been retconned). These are the exceptions who I think don't belong to Fox. However, if Marvel wants to use them in a movie or live action show, they cannot acknowledge their mutant heritage. That's how I see it.

[Mike_Murdock]

I'm not sure at all, but I believe that she is owned by Fox because she is associated with the X-Men. Yes, their origin shouldn't matter, but it looks like it still does, somehow.

Right, but that's my point. Moira is associated with the X-Men, so Fox has the rights. Manifold has no association with the X-Men and is, instead, associated with the Secret Warriors, so Marvel has the rights. If Fox were to lose the rights to the Fantastic Four, I suspect Franklin Richards would go with them even though he is technically a mutant as well. Whether or not they are a "mutant" isn't the most important factor. It's which books are they associated with.

Viper is apparently shared, but Fox owns the name Viper because Fox can't use the word Hydra.

[Thor-Ul]

There are a few mutants who never associated themselves with the X-Men or any of their off-shoots until this decade. Some of those examples include Typhoid Mary, Molly Hayes and Squirrel Girl (whose X-gene has now been retconned). These are the exceptions who I think don't belong to Fox. However, if Marvel wants to use them in a movie or live action show, they cannot acknowledge their mutant heritage. That's how I see it.

The case of Molly Hayes is more in a grey area: she had appearances in the x-men and team-ups with Wolverine. Also an alternate version of her appeared in the X-men. Which made me think, could she also be a shared character as Quicksilver? A child version for Marvel and an adult version for Fox.

[bishop88]

just got back from teh new x-men movie and it boggles my mind on why the hell the magneto series didnt return after secret wars and how the hell we dont have a mystique series. Just to give everyone here a little perspective this past wednesday marvel released these five books moon girl, hyperion nighthawk, red wolf and weirdworld, and i mean no disrepect to the creators involved ..but our store where i work sold less than 5 copies of each of these books and in the case of hyperion and moon gilr we sold 0 copies. Also we have about 25 regular wednesday warriors who buy every marvel book like a robot and even they all put maybe 5 rejected the new nighthawk book. I have been begging my diamond rep to tell marvel to give us more x-books hell even double ship every month the x-books being published now theres just way too may weeks where there are no x-books to sell. I understand marvels rational behind things but they really really miss the x-fan loyalty and its hurting our store.

[VJ.]

Whether or not they are a "mutant" isn't the most important factor. It's which books are they associated with.

Viper is apparently shared, but Fox owns the name Viper because Fox can't use the word Hydra.

Whilst I agree with what you've been posting here, making new characters not mutants clears up IP issues beyond debate and makes for clearer story telling as if lots of new mutants suddenly appeared (as with NuHumans), everyone would wonder why the X-Men weren't involved. Also, it means they can use them on screen without changing them.
I'm not a Complexer - I'm an Inhuman fan, but there's no way the current Inhuman story would be told as a mutant story due to IP issues.

Where I disagree with complexers are the meta reasons for the T-cloud story. IMO the meta reason after 'building a new franchise' is that mavel feels it needs to add more diversity in B-list, C-list, background & supporting characters. And they feel they need to add lots of characters, or at least a story that creators can use as a simple origin. There aren't many ways to to this in comics and previously creators did just go 'he/she's a mutant' for that type of character, they now have another option.

Storywise, Inhumans as a franchise are to different to ever replace mutants - mutants are always going to be the downtrodden underdog, whilst Inhumans are elite and self-assured. The only place you could ever use "Inhumans as a metaphor" to coin a phrase, is to tell the story of a 'model minority'. That's probably why I'm enjoying Soule's run - as a member of a "model minority" myself the occasions he touches on that area of Inhuman life, it really rings true. I've never read an X-men/mutant story that's tried to explore that theme - though please do tell me if any exist.

[AbnormallyNormal]

Whilst I agree with what you've been posting here, making new characters not mutants clears up IP issues beyond debate and makes for clearer story telling as if lots of new mutants suddenly appeared (as with NuHumans), everyone would wonder why the X-Men weren't involved. Also, it means they can use them on screen without changing them.
I'm not a Complexer - I'm an Inhuman fan, but there's no way the current Inhuman story would be told as a mutant story due to IP issues.

Where I disagree with complexers are the meta reasons for the T-cloud story. IMO the meta reason after 'building a new franchise' is that mavel feels it needs to add more diversity in B-list, C-list, background & supporting characters. And they feel they need to add lots of characters, or at least a story that creators can use as a simple origin. There aren't many ways to to this in comics and previously creators did just go 'he/she's a mutant' for that type of character, they now have another option.

Storywise, Inhumans as a franchise are to different to ever replace mutants - mutants are always going to be the downtrodden underdog, whilst Inhumans are elite and self-assured. The only place you could ever use "Inhumans as a metaphor" to coin a phrase, is to tell the story of a 'model minority'. That's probably why I'm enjoying Soule's run - as a member of a "model minority" myself the occasions he touches on that area of Inhuman life, it really rings true. I've never read an X-men/mutant story that's tried to explore that theme - though please do tell me if any exist.

Many X-Men stories have featured East/South Asians or Jewish mutants..... aka model minorities

Your whole description of mutants as basically "pieces of crap who everyone hates" and Inhumans as "glorious great beings" kind of only reinforces our Complex and our point. That distinction is by design and meant to get readers/fans to prefer Inhumans and lose interest in the melodrama and negativity around mutants. It appears to be working in your case.

[VJ.]

Many X-Men stories have featured East/South Asians or Jewish mutants..... aka model minorities

Yes, individual mutants, but the whole "mutants a metaphor" doesn't really work to tell model minority stories.
e.g. I'm a British Indian - growing up, and to a lesser extent today, everyone wanted to share my culture, indian food, Indian fashion and so on were huge. They're still popular, but have passed that peak. Even so, a scene in Uncanny Inhumans where people were trying to get caught in the T-Cloud resonated with me, as did Medusa's speech at the start of the Inhuman series before secret wars about opening up Attalan to visitors so they can mingle, trade and see inhuman society isn't a threat.
Those scenes don't work as well when you do them with a race of people that carry the tag-line "fighting to protect a world that hates and fears them". I've only encountered that when mistaken as coming from a different culture than the one I actually belong to.
Hell, these days my culture does better (statistically) than the majority, both educationally and economically - exactly what decade could you use mutants to tell stories about minority cultures that aren't discriminated against whilst retaining their "mutants as a metaphor" appeal for downtrodden cultures?

Your whole description of mutants as basically "pieces of crap who everyone hates" and Inhumans as "glorious great beings" kind of only reinforces our Complex and our point. That distinction is by design and meant to get readers/fans to prefer Inhumans and lose interest in the melodrama and negativity around mutants. It appears to be working in your case.

I disliked the mutant concept long before Marvel started pushing Inhumans. Having a secret school where you train child soldiers has always struck me as a dumb idea, and their tag-line has never resonated with me. I liked Soule on she-hulk, so gave his Inhuman book a try and was sold. Blame decades of lazy writers that hasn't let them evolve if you like but I listen to the "Jay & Miles X-plain the X-Men" podcast. And as far as I can tell mutants have always been the downtrodden people that the 616 universe public hates because writers keep using them as a metaphor for the latest cultural battle for equality; a noble endeavour, but stifling to the franchise. Although, if the 616 public started loving mutants, the X-Men would no longer have reason to exist at all.

[Mike_Murdock]

Many X-Men stories have featured East/South Asians or Jewish mutants..... aka model minorities

Your whole description of mutants as basically "pieces of crap who everyone hates" and Inhumans as "glorious great beings" kind of only reinforces our Complex and our point. That distinction is by design and meant to get readers/fans to prefer Inhumans and lose interest in the melodrama and negativity around mutants. It appears to be working in your case.

But the melodrama and negativity (as you put it) is the biggest draw of mutants. The allegory is something everyone references. It's the one thing the movies do right. It's something that will help ensure they'll always have a place at Marvel.

[AbnormallyNormal]

But the melodrama and negativity (as you put it) is the biggest draw of mutants. The allegory is something everyone references. It's the one thing the movies do right. It's something that will help ensure they'll always have a place at Marvel.

In an ideal situation mutants would be able to combine both bad and good aspects of being outsiders. Inhumans have stolen the good aspects away now. Human nature being what it is, eventually people get tired/aggravated of only focusing on the bad.

[AbnormallyNormal]

Yes, individual mutants, but the whole "mutants a metaphor" doesn't really work to tell model minority stories.
e.g. I'm a British Indian - growing up, and to a lesser extent today, everyone wanted to share my culture, indian food, Indian fashion and so on were huge. They're still popular, but have passed that peak. Even so, a scene in Uncanny Inhumans where people were trying to get caught in the T-Cloud resonated with me, as did Medusa's speech at the start of the Inhuman series before secret wars about opening up Attalan to visitors so they can mingle, trade and see inhuman society isn't a threat.
Those scenes don't work as well when you do them with a race of people that carry the tag-line "fighting to protect a world that hates and fears them". I've only encountered that when mistaken as coming from a different culture than the one I actually belong to.
Hell, these days my culture does better (statistically) than the majority, both educationally and economically - exactly what decade could you use mutants to tell stories about minority cultures that aren't discriminated against whilst retaining their "mutants as a metaphor" appeal for downtrodden cultures?


I disliked the mutant concept long before Marvel started pushing Inhumans. Having a secret school where you train child soldiers has always struck me as a dumb idea, and their tag-line has never resonated with me. I liked Soule on she-hulk, so gave his Inhuman book a try and was sold. Blame decades of lazy writers that hasn't let them evolve if you like but I listen to the "Jay & Miles X-plain the X-Men" podcast. And as far as I can tell mutants have always been the downtrodden people that the 616 universe public hates because writers keep using them as a metaphor for the latest cultural battle for equality; a noble endeavour, but stifling to the franchise. Although, if the 616 public started loving mutants, the X-Men would no longer have reason to exist at all.

I think part of it could be that nowadays the political Right is in much more control than in the 1960s or 1970s or even 1980s. And so the concept of being oppressed but making the best of it does not resonate anymore as much. People now seem to believe in everyone for themselves, greed is good, and if you screw over or trample others to help yourself, hey thats the way of the world. I can understand why the X-Men are taking a hit due to all of that.

[Confuzzled]

I think part of it could be that nowadays the political Right is in much more control than in the 1960s or 1970s or even 1980s.

The discrimination is still there but it exists in a different way as Raven puts it in the movie. That's why Morrison was headed in the right direction with the "thriving subculture" angle, as it would have presented the more nuanced problems that today's minorities face. But Quesada had to piss all over that and reset the button to some lame, irrelevant endangered species concept. T-Mist nonsense is a repetition of the same silliness.

[AbnormallyNormal]

The discrimination is still there but it exists in a different way as Raven puts it in the movie. That's why Morrison was headed in the right direction with the "thriving subculture" angle, as it would have presented the more nuanced problems that today's minorities face. But Quesada had to piss all over that and reset the button to some lame, irrelevant endangered species concept. T-Mist nonsense is a repetition of the same silliness.

Agreed. I hate how people keep blaming the X-Men for things that big-time Marvel/Disney editors mandate done to hurt them, like somehow them being hurt is their own fault

[Carabas]

Agreed. I hate how people keep blaming the X-Men for things that big-time Marvel/Disney editors mandate done to hurt them, like somehow them being hurt is their own fault

This was years before Disney entered the picture. You can't blame everything on an evil megacorp.

[AbnormallyNormal]

This was years before Disney entered the picture. You can't blame everything on an evil megacorp.

Youre right about Disney not owning them when Decimation happened.

You're wrong that that by itself proves there was no mal intentions.

Clearly Marvel was run by "The Notorious" Perlmutter by that time. They were already hatching schemes about how to develop what IPs they still owned for the big bucks of movies.

[Carabas]

Youre right about Disney not owning them when Decimation happened.

You're wrong that that by itself proves there was no mal intentions.

Clearly Marvel was run by "The Notorious" Perlmutter by that time. They were already hatching schemes about how to develop what IPs they still owned for the big bucks of movies.

Sorry, but it is very clearly established that this was all down to Quesada and his three genies he wanted to put back into their bottles as editor in chief, out of pure nostalgia, (which got us House Of Meh, Civil Streetbrawl, and Frelling One More Day).

At the time, Perlmutter LOVED the Fox X-Men films because of all the money they were bringing in.