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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post

    Even Wallace being able to share speed is something I'm not 100% sold on; Wally was the first to do that and is still the Flash best known for it. Not trying to step on your toes or anything but with Wallace my first concern would always be ensuring he's not repeating Wally's skills, abilities, or history. Gotta make sure Wallace is on his own path and not a bad copy of someone else yknow? Still a damn cool power though.
    I don't think minor similarities like that matter. I mean Wallace already is a functional clone of Wally from an introduction standpoint with Iris "Hey Barry, this is my nephew, please mentor him as Kid Flash!" You're not escaping that without a big retcon and, frankly, Wallace is going to take on some of Wally's other minor traits because he's going to be the one adapted to external media as the only Wally. So anything you want as a sort of foundational piece to the character, Wallace is going to have anyhow.

  2. #122
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    I don't think minor similarities like that matter. I mean Wallace already is a functional clone of Wally from an introduction standpoint with Iris "Hey Barry, this is my nephew, please mentor him as Kid Flash!" You're not escaping that without a big retcon and, frankly, Wallace is going to take on some of Wally's other minor traits because he's going to be the one adapted to external media as the only Wally. So anything you want as a sort of foundational piece to the character, Wallace is going to have anyhow.
    There's always going to be *some* similarity and overlap sure. And that's actually a good thing; it allows you to double down on the core themes and narratives of your franchise while still getting the benefit of unique perspectives.

    But too much overlap and it becomes a problem. You gotta be careful how much you allow or they stop being independent characters. Nobody here wants Wallace to be nothing more than race bent Wally; we want both characters to have distinct personalities, skills, histories, etc., even if they have some stuff in common.

    Wallace and Wally both being Iris' nephews, sharing a name, yeah that stuff we can't really get away from and there's no real reason to; nothing in there gets "in the way" of the story, and it actually leans into the long-standing idea of the Flash as a family mantle. Wallace and Wally can and should have some things in common without being copies of each other.

    As for larger media....that's a different issue in my mind. Comics have always had the larger, more expansive mythos so it's to be expected that adaptations will cut and paste or ignore things. And maybe future adaptations will follow the CW's lead and only cast black actors as Wally. But shouldn't there be a difference between "Wallace" and "race bent Wally?"
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  3. #123
    Astonishing Member OBrianTallent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    The Time Trapper shows up and pockets everything Bendis did to Superman in a little ball. No retconed Krypton, no teenage Jon, no Clark and Lois being garbage parents, no 21st century United Planets, no rebooted Legion of Super Heroes. All of it closed off in its own little pocket universe. It would be like Bendis was never there.
    I can get behind this. I would even be happy if it was just the Legion that got shunted off. The Time Trapper along with Mordru did some shenanigans and trapped the real Legion in a time bubble, they break out and beat the crap out of them, the Bendis Legion fades from existence. It was all a nightmare realm created by the Trapper and Mordru. The Earth is back, the Legion is back. All is good.

    Donna Troy...
    Before we figure out who saved Donna Troy, they need to figure out when Diana showed up. If she's been around since World War II, then fine, Diana saved her, brought her back to the island and she grew up there. If Diana didn't do it, we have other options...Hessia would be a good one. She saved her and returned her to the island. Either way, what had happened was....Dark Angel is actually one of the Muses of mythology, Thelxinoe. Her name actually means "mind charmer." Let's say one of Donna's parents was greek and spurned her advances? That's why the house burned. Donna being saved pissed off Thelxinoe even more, but she couldn't reach her on Themyscira. When she left the island as Wonder Girl, Thelxinoe started monkeying around with her memories. Donna wouldn't break though. Finally, around the time of New 52, Thelxinoe found a way to totally screw with her and everyone else around her. Enlisting the aid of the Queen of Fables, they weaved a spell that turned everything on it's head for Donna and trapped her in this false memory of being a golem created by Amazon sorcery to destroy Diana. But Donna starts remembering her reality and through magical hijinks finds the Queen of Fables castle and Thelxinoe, now calling herself a Dark Angel. Diana and Cassie come with her, all fight. the Sisters come out on top, everyone remembers everything. Cassie even finds out who her dad is: Perseus (which also leads to her having Pegasus around.)

  4. #124

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    -Watchmen in the DCU.

    The ghost of pre-Nu52 Vic Sage assembles a team consisting of Booster Gold, Rip Hunter, Donna Troy, Hawkman and Brainiac 5 to confront Dr Manhattan. The Question asks Doc Manhattan "why the hell are you pretending to be characters from a comic book I read years ago while on a plane trip?". This prompts Dr Manhattan to drop his disguise and reveal himself to be the Time Trapper. He's been manipulating everything in order to prevent the Legion from coming into being and also to erase the existence of the Gods. The Watchmen characters still 'exist' in the DCU but they are just figments of Trapper's imagination given life and yes, inspired by the comic book.


    -Donna Troy

    It should have been easy with Diana's Rebirth origin to fix Donna's history. However the main hurdle is the fact that they chose to re-incorporate the idea that Diana can never return to Paradise Island if she leaves the island. I would make it so that Donna was an ordinary human girl who was caught in a shipwreck and floating near Paradise Island when she was rescued by Diana. She was raised on Paradise Island and named Donna. She yearned to find her real family but knew she could not come back if she left. Later she ran away after being tempted by the Dark Angel. The latter also tricks Donna into casting a spell that made everyone forget that she ever existed. However she later escapes the Dark Angel thanks to the Titan Rhea (whom Donna's mother prayed to before the shipwreck). She meets Diana but the latter doesn't recognize her anymore so Donna acts like they met for the first time. Later with Dick Grayson's help, Donna manages to find her real family and later with Raven and Zatanna's help, she manages to vanquish Dark Angel (who is revealed to be hunting versions of Donna Troy across the multiverse) and everybody's memories of her are restored and then she manages to reunite with Diana.

    Later she travels the Multiverse and through time with Booster Gold and Question in order to repair the broken history of the DCU. All the random ass backstories she got over the years is due to Hypertime and due to different universes/time overlapping with the 'main' one. Now she has to help fix it.


    -Wallace West

    Wallace can channel his Speed Force energy into different objects. Car, bicycles, scooters, motorcycles can run just as fast as him if he channels his power through them. However, using his powers like that can drain thrice the amount of energy from him than if he was just running.

  5. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Would you address the years of confusion she's felt about her origins at all? Or would you just say "a wizard did it" and call it a day?
    No. It's been rehashed over and over and over to the point of addressing is a huge part of the problem. Going with she's girl from Man's World that was on a ship washed up on the island where was she was found, rescued, and raised by the Amazons as basically Diana's little sister. She eventually gets her own set of magical powers, weapons, and armor and goes to help Diana and becomes a hero in her own right. It's a simplified new origin, that can be used by any number of ways than trying untangle her origin, powers, name, costume and who she is.

    Sometimes the simple new way is not only the best way, it' the only way.

  6. #126

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I'm not big on making superheroes all about redemption. It didn't work with the Hal Jordan/Spectre.

    Honestly Hal Jordan as the Spectre was the ONLY time I've ever liked or care about Hal Jordan. I hate that Green Lantern: Rebirth reduced Kyle Rayner into a drooling idiotic Hal Jordan fanboy instead of Hal's equal.

  7. #127
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberstrike View Post
    Honestly Hal Jordan as the Spectre was the ONLY time I've ever liked or care about Hal Jordan. I hate that Green Lantern: Rebirth reduced Kyle Rayner into a drooling idiotic Hal Jordan fanboy instead of Hal's equal.
    To be fair, they haven't really found anything worthwhile for Kyle to do for a long, long time, even before Rebirth demoted him to C-lister.

    I'm sure a good writer could figure something out, but once Marz graduated him from being the rookie and Winnick made him the Chosen One, there hasn't really been anywhere else to go with him.

  8. #128

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    IMO, they need to approach Kyle less as a GL and more like a struggling artist who happens to have a ring that brings his imagination to life.

  9. #129
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    this is my assembled pitch for the origin of Donna Troy.

    When Diana was still young, living in Themyscira, the Titan Thia (or someone else) grew to resent her as the most beloved creation of the lesser Olympian goddesses. Desperate to destroy the young child, she conjured a living nightmare to consume Diana and emotionally torture her for the rest of time. The Olympian goddesses (or someone else) couldn't stop or contain the creature, so in shame they created a magic clone for the beast to consume instead, this was Donna Troy. Donna had all of Diana's memories of a happy childhood with the amazons, but her day and night were spent living Diana's worst nightmares, over and over again. The fears and failures that Diana never experienced. Not the destruction of the world, not the death of all her peers, but of being unloved, unwanted, unworthy.

    Many years later, when Diana was a hero in Man's world she found out about Donna and through an epic saga managed to free her from the living nightmare. She bonded with Donna and tried to take care of her. Yada yada yada, Donna is brought to man's world and cared for by Diana's friends, she eventually forms the original Teen Titans. She starts a life in our world and through this overcomes her past as a cosmically bullied punching back and stops yearning for the love and happiness that Diana experienced, because she herself gets that in the present. She becomes a hero.

    If you want a 2 sentence origin:
    Donna is a magic clone of Diana with all of her childhood memories, but who was raised inside a living nightmare. One day she escaped and started a life in our world while learning to overcome her abused past and come out stronger.
    Last edited by Alpha; 10-05-2021 at 07:05 AM.

  10. #130
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    IMO, they need to approach Kyle less as a GL and more like a struggling artist who happens to have a ring that brings his imagination to life.
    Yeah, Kyle being an artist feels like the secret sauce to the character that has been sorely neglected.

  11. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    this is my assembled pitch for the origin of Donna Troy.

    When Diana was still young, living in Themyscira, the Titan Thia (or someone else) grew to resent her as the most beloved creation of the lesser Olympian goddesses. Desperate to destroy the young child, she conjured a living nightmare to consume Diana and emotionally torture her for the rest of time. The Olympian goddesses (or someone else) couldn't stop or contain the creature, so in shame they created a magic clone for the beast to consume instead, this was Donna Troy. Donna had all of Diana's memories of a happy childhood with the amazons, but her day and night were spent living Diana's worst nightmares, over and over again. The fears and failures that Diana never experienced. Not the destruction of the world, not the death of all her peers, but of being unloved, unwanted, unworthy.

    Many years later, when Diana was a hero in Man's world she found out about Donna and through an epic saga managed to free her from the living nightmare. She bonded with Donna and tried to take care of her. Yada yada yada, Donna is brought to man's world and cared for by Diana's friends, she eventually forms the original Teen Titans. She starts a life in our world and through this overcomes her past as a cosmically bullied punching back and stops earning for the love and happiness that Diana experienced, because she herself gets that in the present. She becomes a hero.

    If you want a 2 sentence origin:
    Donna is a magic clone of Diana with all of her childhood memories, but who was raised inside a living nightmare. One day she escaped and started a life in our world while learning to overcome her abused past and come out stronger.
    I'm going to have to give this one a......




    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Yeah, Kyle being an artist feels like the secret sauce to the character that has been sorely neglected.
    With so many GL's around now, the only option is to make them as different from each other as possible.

    Kyle's constructs should be the most creative and visually arresting of all GL's. Give his book to someone like Mike Allred and let him go to town like he did on the Silver Surfer.

  12. #132
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I'm going to have to give this one a......


    That feels a bit mean but okay. I know you like the story where she's adopted by the amazons, and you know that I think that story isn't Interesting. Nothing will change what each of us thinks and that's probably okay. I still love my idea.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    To be fair, they haven't really found anything worthwhile for Kyle to do for a long, long time, even before Rebirth demoted him to C-lister.

    I'm sure a good writer could figure something out, but once Marz graduated him from being the rookie and Winnick made him the Chosen One, there hasn't really been anywhere else to go with him.
    Making Kyle the Chosen One was writers trying to over compensate for his girlfriend getting killed and shoved in a fridge. Not only was that totally unnecessary, it destroyed Kyle's credibility as a hero going forward in my opinion.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    this is my assembled pitch for the origin of Donna Troy.

    When Diana was still young, living in Themyscira, the Titan Thia (or someone else) grew to resent her as the most beloved creation of the lesser Olympian goddesses. Desperate to destroy the young child, she conjured a living nightmare to consume Diana and emotionally torture her for the rest of time. The Olympian goddesses (or someone else) couldn't stop or contain the creature, so in shame they created a magic clone for the beast to consume instead, this was Donna Troy. Donna had all of Diana's memories of a happy childhood with the amazons, but her day and night were spent living Diana's worst nightmares, over and over again. The fears and failures that Diana never experienced. Not the destruction of the world, not the death of all her peers, but of being unloved, unwanted, unworthy.

    Many years later, when Diana was a hero in Man's world she found out about Donna and through an epic saga managed to free her from the living nightmare. She bonded with Donna and tried to take care of her. Yada yada yada, Donna is brought to man's world and cared for by Diana's friends, she eventually forms the original Teen Titans. She starts a life in our world and through this overcomes her past as a cosmically bullied punching back and stops earning for the love and happiness that Diana experienced, because she herself gets that in the present. She becomes a hero.

    If you want a 2 sentence origin:
    Donna is a magic clone of Diana with all of her childhood memories, but who was raised inside a living nightmare. One day she escaped and started a life in our world while learning to overcome her abused past and come out stronger.

    Creative, but a bit too convoluted. Convolution is what made Donna into the mess of a character she is today.

    I think Donna's origin should be girl rescued by Wonder Woman and trained as an Amazon, eventually becoming a hero in her own right.

  15. #135
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Yeah, Kyle being an artist feels like the secret sauce to the character that has been sorely neglected.
    The thing that made Kyle work, in my opinion, is that he was DC's Everyman. When DC moved him away from that, the character lost his appeal and became just another Lantern.

    You want Kyle to work as a character again, you get him off Oa and back in NYC, back to being a semi-successful-but-still-struggling artist, with normal-person supporting cast/relationships and problems.

    Kyle doesn't have to be a super special snowflake who is unique in the Corps, and in fact he really shouldn't be. He was the last Lantern but that's not what we loved about him, it was the fact that he was a slightly nerdy comic fan and artist and we could see ourselves reflected in the character. DC keeps trying to turn him into Hal Jordan when they should have just left him as the cool (but still average) version of Peter Parker.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

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