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  1. #1
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Default The "DC's broken toys and how to fix them" Thread (Spoilers Galore)

    Superhero comics have long history of fumbling the ball badly sometimes, requiring them to come up with some way to reverse themselves without totally contradicting the story they'd published.

    One of the best examples was Geoff Johns's Parallax was the Yellow Impurity retcon from GL Rebirth because it not only retained almost everything that worked about Emerald Twilight and everything that followed, but managed to not only rehabilitate Hal Jordan and undo the damage done to the GL franchise, but also introduced a new element to the mythos that DC was able to mine successfully for many years to great critical and commercial success.

    A less successful one, but still largely effective, was the retconning away of the death of Stephanie Brown at the hands of Leslie Thompkins by explaining that it was all a ruse concocted by Leslie to teach Batman a lesson about constantly putting underaged kids in mortal danger, and that Batman kinda suspected that all along. It was messier and less elegant than GL Rebirth, but it got the job done.

    The most recent example of DC shooting itself in the foot would obviously be what just happened with Wally West in Heroes in Crisis.

    So....how do they fix this mess. (Please save your "By firing Dan Didio" jokes/rants, thanks. There's other threads for that already)

    The tricky part for me would be to not simply rehash what Johns did with Hal Jordan, but to do something appropriate to Wally's character that fits his history.

    My initial idea would be to use Hunter Zolomon because his entire shtick has literally always been to make Wally a better hero by adding tragedy to his life. However, that feels like too much a straight swap of Sinestro with Zoom instead, so I'd bring in more Rogues and have it be this giant conspiracy of some of Wally's greatest foes all working to destroy him in mind, body and soul, like Abra Kadabra, who was somehow involved in Wally's erasure from history according to Abnett's Titans comics (which were so forgettable that I don't remember the exact details of right now). I'd also throw in Savitar's essense somehow getting inside Wally and turning his Speed Force into something lethal, which caused the explosion at Santuary. I'd probably throw Grodd in there for good measure because his mental powers could help explain the truly inexplicable decisions Wally was shown making in HiC.

    Anyone else got any ideas for Wally or any other DC character or concept that you think has been broken by poor creative decisions?

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    Mine would be the fix Wally story.

    I'd go with ultimately the reveal that the Wally in question is in fact Walter. The build up would be post Doomsday Clock so that we've got access to Jay as well as all the speedsters. Slowly build it up saying that there is something in the speedforce and it's "frightening" mainly because the people freaking out are the two Reverse-Flashes and "Wally" but have Jay state that he feels it to. Basically it's the Speedforce version of the Boogeyman. Have the Reverse Flashes willingly go into Justice League custody out of fear of the boogeyman and have them locked up with "Wally". Slowly build up the boogeyman is coming having him take out the Justice League and such then as this is happening reveal that Zoom knows something is up, more than he lets on. "Wally" starts freaking out causing Thawne to confront Zoom asking what he did. Reveal that during Flash War Zoom managed to lock Wally in the speedforce again and that the one right now is in fact Walter who Zoom promised to basically give Wallys life. Only problem is that Walter screws it up, Linda can't remember him and act as a lightning rod because he's not the real Wally, which cause him to freak out and leads to HiC. We then find out that the boogeyman is in fact the real Wally, dressed either as Hot Pursuit or something like the Savitar armor from the Flash show. Wally reveals that he's undone the damage by stopping Walter in the past, you can do a time-wimey cheat here by saying that a Speedforce event took place at Sanctuary and that in the proper timeline people were only injured and no fatalities minus Roy's hat. Wally helps Walter once again by having him merge with the Speedforce where he's never alone as he'll always be with people when ever the use the Speedforce, meanwhile the Thawne got the hell out of dodge once he realized it was Wally and Zoom is let go but given the threat that Wally is always dogging his steps forever, like the boogeyman.

  3. #3
    It sucks to be right BohemiaDrinker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    My initial idea would be to use Hunter Zolomon because his entire shtick has literally always been to make Wally a better hero by adding tragedy to his life. However, that feels like too much a straight swap of Sinestro with Zoom instead, so I'd bring in more Rogues and have it be this giant conspiracy of some of Wally's greatest foes all working to destroy him in mind, body and soul, like Abra Kadabra, who was somehow involved in Wally's erasure from history according to Abnett's Titans comics (which were so forgettable that I don't remember the exact details of right now). I'd also throw in Savitar's essense somehow getting inside Wally and turning his Speed Force into something lethal, which caused the explosion at Santuary. I'd probably throw Grodd in there for good measure because his mental powers could help explain the truly inexplicable decisions Wally was shown making in HiC.
    For Wally the only fix is for this to be an imposter.

    It's not only his actions, every single detail about his characterization is ridiculously and offensively wrong. Even downright mind-control doesn't work because the thoughts her has before and after all the bullshit are not Wally in any way, shape or form.

    The act in itself is the major, but by far not only problem.
    ConnEr Kent flies. ConnOr Hawke has a bow. Batman's kid is named DamiAn.

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    1) It wasn't Wally's powers that caused the effect. It was part of a long term plan by Thawne (which included changing both Wally and Barry's history in Flashpoint).
    2) Sanctuary never existed- it was created by Abra Kadabra with 64th Century illusionary tech, just to set Wally up.
    3) Wally never came back- it's been a delusional Walter West, The Dark Flash, since Rebirth. His presence here was corrupting reality which is why people remembered things around him that they had "forgotten" previously.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Superhero comics have long history of fumbling the ball badly sometimes, requiring them to come up with some way to reverse themselves without totally contradicting the story they'd published.

    One of the best examples was Geoff Johns's Parallax was the Yellow Impurity retcon from GL Rebirth because it not only retained almost everything that worked about Emerald Twilight and everything that followed, but managed to not only rehabilitate Hal Jordan and undo the damage done to the GL franchise, but also introduced a new element to the mythos that DC was able to mine successfully for many years to great critical and commercial success.

    A less successful one, but still largely effective, was the retconning away of the death of Stephanie Brown at the hands of Leslie Thompkins by explaining that it was all a ruse concocted by Leslie to teach Batman a lesson about constantly putting underaged kids in mortal danger, and that Batman kinda suspected that all along. It was messier and less elegant than GL Rebirth, but it got the job done.

    The most recent example of DC shooting itself in the foot would obviously be what just happened with Wally West in Heroes in Crisis.

    So....how do they fix this mess. (Please save your "By firing Dan Didio" jokes/rants, thanks. There's other threads for that already)

    The tricky part for me would be to not simply rehash what Johns did with Hal Jordan, but to do something appropriate to Wally's character that fits his history.

    My initial idea would be to use Hunter Zolomon because his entire shtick has literally always been to make Wally a better hero by adding tragedy to his life. However, that feels like too much a straight swap of Sinestro with Zoom instead, so I'd bring in more Rogues and have it be this giant conspiracy of some of Wally's greatest foes all working to destroy him in mind, body and soul, like Abra Kadabra, who was somehow involved in Wally's erasure from history according to Abnett's Titans comics (which were so forgettable that I don't remember the exact details of right now). I'd also throw in Savitar's essense somehow getting inside Wally and turning his Speed Force into something lethal, which caused the explosion at Santuary. I'd probably throw Grodd in there for good measure because his mental powers could help explain the truly inexplicable decisions Wally was shown making in HiC.

    Anyone else got any ideas for Wally or any other DC character or concept that you think has been broken by poor creative decisions?
    I just read yours a bit closer and realized mine strays pretty damn close to yours. Almost uncomfortable close.

  6. #6
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Donna Troy.

    Just say she's Diana's sister or was a little girl saved in Man's World who was raised on Themyscira and call it a day.

    It doesn't have to be any more complicated then that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dornwolf View Post
    I just read yours a bit closer and realized mine strays pretty damn close to yours. Almost uncomfortable close.
    *gasp!*

    GET OUT OF MY MIND!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Donna Troy.

    Just say she's Diana's sister or was a little girl saved in Man's World who was raised on Themyscira and call it a day.

    It doesn't have to be any more complicated then that.
    Would you address the years of confusion she's felt about her origins at all? Or would you just say "a wizard did it" and call it a day?

  9. #9
    Traveler of omniverses Thor-Ul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Donna Troy.

    Just say she's Diana's sister or was a little girl saved in Man's World who was raised on Themyscira and call it a day.

    It doesn't have to be any more complicated then that.

    That would be the easy solution, but the game is how to fix the damage without totally contradicting previous stories. And Donna needs some retcons in her story, but first her must be rebuilt. It is not only her origin but her place in the world. But maybe DC can use the most recent revelations as a starting point for fix her.

    I think than give Donna the power of remember previous continuities, as it was hinted in Return of Donna Troy could be a good path. But why she can do that? Still working on that.


    A question for the OP: How do you consider the way Hawkman has been fixed?
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-Ul View Post

    A question for the OP: How do you consider the way Hawkman has been fixed?
    I think the fixing of Hawkman is an ongoing process. Ostrander's idea of the Hawk avatars throughout history begat Johns's merger of the Egyptian and Thanagarian origins, which begat Venditti's Deathbringers stuff.

    I thought Johns's worked best, but didn't go far enough in resolving the whole Silver Age Katar vs Hawkworld Katar problem. Venditti's notion of Katar reincarnating across time and space resolved that for me, but the idea that Hawkman has been trying to atone for being a intergalactic mass murderer doesn't really resonate with me. I'm not big on making superheroes all about redemption. It didn't work with the Hal Jordan/Spectre. I don't think it will work with Hawkman either because it taints any heroic action he now makes as something he feels obligated to do because of guilt, rather than wanting to do good because it's the right thing to do.

    That kind of stuff doesn't make a superhero more relatable to me. It's not that I haven't screwed up big time over my life and tried to make things right, but it's that I don't think that's what heroism is all about. Guilt, regret, trauma, and loss are great seasonings for heroic characters, but I have no interest in characters who are consumed by their past, which is probably why most takes on Batman do nothing for me.

  11. #11
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    1) It wasn't Wally's powers that caused the effect. It was part of a long term plan by Thawne (which included changing both Wally and Barry's history in Flashpoint).
    2) Sanctuary never existed- it was created by Abra Kadabra with 64th Century illusionary tech, just to set Wally up.
    3) Wally never came back- it's been a delusional Walter West, The Dark Flash, since Rebirth. His presence here was corrupting reality which is why people remembered things around him that they had "forgotten" previously.
    Works for me.

    My answer would have been an alternate reality Wally. Pretty much everything about him since rebirth has all been about how he doesn't exist here and he doesn't fit in here and his whole story is about trying to force his way back into this world... I think the best answer is that it ISN"T his world. He's some OTHER Wally. Pretty much how Walter was introduced... so that works too.

    Then have Barry (who now remembers A Wally) go on a search to find his Wally and bring him home.

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I think the fixing of Hawkman is an ongoing process. Ostrander's idea of the Hawk avatars throughout history begat Johns's merger of the Egyptian and Thanagarian origins, which begat Venditti's Deathbringers stuff.

    I thought Johns's worked best, but didn't go far enough in resolving the whole Silver Age Katar vs Hawkworld Katar problem. Venditti's notion of Katar reincarnating across time and space resolved that for me, but the idea that Hawkman has been trying to atone for being a intergalactic mass murderer doesn't really resonate with me. I'm not big on making superheroes all about redemption. It didn't work with the Hal Jordan/Spectre. I don't think it will work with Hawkman either because it taints any heroic action he now makes as something he feels obligated to do because of guilt, rather than wanting to do good because it's the right thing to do.

    That kind of stuff doesn't make a superhero more relatable to me. It's not that I haven't screwed up big time over my life and tried to make things right, but it's that I don't think that's what heroism is all about. Guilt, regret, trauma, and loss are great seasonings for heroic characters, but I have no interest in characters who are consumed by their past, which is probably why most takes on Batman do nothing for me.
    Agree with all this. I love the idea that he's reincarnating through time and space... I'm not sure if they've hit on it or not... but Since he conceivably could hop around time with where his soul is 'reborn', There could even be two or three Carter's running around at the same time each living their own lives and some possibly remembering the others. Katar and Carter... same guy why not... souls are wacky things. When Katar eventually dies, his soul is reborn in the past 1930's as Carter who doesn't realize he's Khufu until years later... Get all timey whimey on this.

    It also opens up the idea that he can be reincarnated... without having to jump through hoops to have a full grown man taking over instead of coming back as a baby... which I think has REALLY been a problem since Zero Hour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Would you address the years of confusion she's felt about her origins at all? Or would you just say "a wizard did it" and call it a day?
    My proposed solution does have an element of "a wizard did it."

    The recent issue of Justice League threw some shade at non-World's Finest heroes by claiming that Superman and Batman are so important that the 5th Dimension assigned imps to monitor each hero: Mister Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite. I chaffed at the idea that only those two of the Trinity have imps (especially considering that Aquaman had Qwisp). This got me musing if Wonder Woman had an imp, what would he/she/it look like. Then it dawned on me that Diana has a readily available candidate from her mythos: Wonder Tot!

    What if Wonder Tot was a 5th dimensional imp so enamored by Wonder Woman that she came to the 3rd dimension one day and was responsible for the "Impossible Stories" from the Silver Age? She had her fun--in addition to roping in Diana and Hippolyta--by creating a "Wonder Girl." Then, one day, Wonder Tot goes back to the 5th Dimension and goes about her life.

    Some time later, peeking back into the 3rd dimension a little later, Wonder Tot sees that the Bat and Supe Families had too may proteges and decided Diana needed one as well. Finding an abandoned baby girl in danger of dying, Wonder Tot arranges Diana to get to that location. History unfolds and Diana saves Donna from the fire and subsequently becomes her ward and sister.

    Wonder Tot follows Donna's growth to become a real version of her Impossible Wonder Girl--and adores her as well as Diana. In the cataclysmic COIE, Wonder Tot is unable to save Diana from regression, but is able to use (all) her abilities to save Donna Troy from the ravages of the Crisis...and falls into a coma. Wonder Tot's 5th dimensional interventions has lasting and recurring irregularities and inconsistencies for Donna in each evolution/iteration of the DCU--even as the METAVERSE resets and rewrites itself.

    When Wonder Tot finally heals and comes out of her coma, she works with Wonder Woman to correct the irregularities and inconsistencies...and thereby restoring Donna Troy as the adoptive sister of Diana in any and all iterations of the Wonder Woman mythos.

  14. #14
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    You could simply say that the Wally that broke out was a version created by Manhattan after seeing the original try to survive Flashpoint.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackBNimble View Post

    What if Wonder Tot was a 5th dimensional imp so enamored by Wonder Woman that she came to the 3rd dimension one day and was responsible for the "Impossible Stories" from the Silver Age? She had her fun--in addition to roping in Diana and Hippolyta--by creating a "Wonder Girl." Then, one day, Wonder Tot goes back to the 5th Dimension and goes about her life.
    This one is cool. I like it.

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