Why didnt DC make more out of Kon-El?

[DrNewGod]

NO....

You talk about JOHNS TT KON-EL

I am talking about the early Kon El (when he first appeared etc.)

http://i.imgur.com/nFvvMUZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/K8f2OyK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/aLg5eId.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/gxQVUoG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2Nt9QBF.jpg

Also think back at early Superboy when he was taking a surfboard to catch the gang on Hawaii
https://pheelyks.tumblr.com/post/160...t-superboy-can

The EARLY Kon El had a LOT!!! of common to Spider-Man...

He was funny,cocky,saracastic,made sarcastic comments etc.

MUCH more than Nightwing...

and I also remind back at the Amalgan Version of Spider-Man and Superboy..



I wouldnt say that...

If you look back at the old Kon El, like his characterization above, how he was displayed early, then you could say that he and Peter had a lot in common, like being sarcastic,making fun of the enemies etc.

So if you characterize him more than he was early as he first showed up during Reign of the Supermen etc., give him a town of his own and give him some cool villains, he could reach a good level and become quite successfull...

I took Spider-Man, because the early Kon El reminds me a lot of him....

The short answer is: they tried. Immediately-Post-Return-Of-Superman Superboy got his own title, and it had real talent on it. It sold well for quite some time. However, at the end of the day, he wasn't Superman, nor lacking a relatable origin, could he be the Spider-Man analog you desire.

The key to Spider-Man's popularity has never been his abilities, or his smart mouth (at least, not in isolation). It's always been the ease with which we're able to see ourselves as him, or at least see Spider-Man as an aspirational version of ourselves. Peter Parker has all of an ordinary person's ordinary troubles, and finds doing the right thing hard, and often unrewarding. Just like the rest of us.

Being a clone cooked up by Cadmus creates a separation from the rest of us that prevents Superboy from capturing Spider-Man's magic. If there's a genuinely close analog to Spider-Man in pop-culture, it's probably Buffy The Vampire-Slayer.

[Masterff]

The short answer is: they tried. Immediately-Post-Return-Of-Superman Superboy got his own title, and it had real talent on it. It sold well for quite some time. However, at the end of the day, he wasn't Superman, nor lacking a relatable origin, could he be the Spider-Man analog you desire.

The key to Spider-Man's popularity has never been his abilities, or his smart mouth (at least, not in isolation). It's always been the ease with which we're able to see ourselves as him, or at least see Spider-Man as an aspirational version of ourselves. Peter Parker has all of an ordinary person's ordinary troubles, and finds doing the right thing hard, and often unrewarding. Just like the rest of us.

Being a clone cooked up by Cadmus creates a separation from the rest of us that prevents Superboy from capturing Spider-Man's magic. If there's a genuinely close analog to Spider-Man in pop-culture, it's probably Buffy The Vampire-Slayer.

Superboy had two titles:
-First the one in Hawaii, which I liked...
-then after Teen Titans as he returned to Smallville which I ABSOLUTELY didnt like....


You leave here some key points out:

1. Villains: Superboy Title NEVER had such iconic, cool, recognisable Villains like Batman with Joker,Clayface,Man-Bat,Black Mask,Scarecrow.....Spider-Man with his villains etc.
Having such Villains is also a NECCESSARY Key Point to the popularity of a Hero, without Joker and the others Batman would never have been such a success...
Knockout was the only remarkable next to King Shark (who is more a Flash Villain)

2. Superboy was always put into extremas:
-first he bragged,was always hyperactive etc.
-then for a while during Young Justice he was pretty cool and well rounded, BUT I didnt like the look
-then he became to extremely funny almost childish (with the Bag over his head as Batman....he was to childish and annyoging)
-then he was informed that he is a clone of Lex and became angsty etc. and was also rebelious in school etc. (TT Run)
-then as he returned to Smallville he was EXTREMELY quiet,almost shy and quite boring... (last Solo-Run)

3. He was also to extreme in his life (which you also said above)
-first he was young and alone with his manager in Hawaii etc.
-then he went to school, but didnt fit into and also DIDNT want to fit into...

4. They always gave him a new Look
his costume,body size,hair cut etc. changed DRAMATICALLY over the years and YJ,TT,his Solo Runs etc.

So if they would get him a town of his own, remarkable and cool villains, give him a character who is more well balanced (like he seems to be now) and try to insert him in a normal public life he has a very very good chance to become successful...

[theoneandonly]

I certainly can see where you are coming from but ultimately the narrative choices for Kon tended to retcon him a lot clone/derivative/hybrid. there was even a bit of the Peter pan with him stuck being at a certain age which made him a fluid character unlike Spider Man who was bitten by a spider and fullstop. the subsequent retcons in his case added to the lore quite a bit without changing him too radically unlike Kon. there's also the image Spider Man has of being a loser in the heroes community in universe though so.e do respect him more than others whereas whatever you want to say about Kon he was never regarded as a unnecessary complication whenever he joined the fray unlike bart who was treated more of a nuisance.

[Kon93]

SB just needs his own series again. Based NOT in Smallville, and more like Hawaii, where he can spread his wings and call it his own again, BUT with his older more mature attitude, but without losing the fun of being a hero, which is original version always had.

[Masterff]

I really like Conner (although I like more Conner in TT with Smallville), but your idea wouldn't necessary be a hit or success. Kessel Kon-El wasn't so popular at the end of his run either.

Dick Grayson fulfills most of what you said (and he has a lot more history than Conner), but he is still a pretty relegated character.

Nowadays, it is pretty difficult that a character connected to bigger name can become really independent.

I searched for some sales numbers:

https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...6/1996-09.html
1996
Wonder Woman had 45.300
Superboy had 43.100

https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...9/1999-01.html
1999
Superboy had circa 26.300
Wonder Woman had circa 28.500

https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...1/2001-06.html
2001
Superboy had 23.000
Wonder Woman had circa 33.200

so for some time Superboy and Wonder Woman were close if you count the sold comics...

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I'm fine with giving Conner his own city, supporting cast, villains, etc. I don't think people would see him as DC's Spider-man because he lacks the "everyman juggling two lives" aspect that people tend to associate with Spider-man.

People tend to think of Tim Drake back in the 90s or Jaime Reyes (Blue Beetle) recently as DC's Spiderman.

[Masterff]

I'm fine with giving Conner his own city, supporting cast, villains, etc. I don't think people would see him as DC's Spider-man because he lacks the "everyman juggling two lives" aspect that people tend to associate with Spider-man.

People tend to think of Tim Drake back in the 90s or Jaime Reyes (Blue Beetle) recently as DC's Spiderman.

It kind of depends how do you design Kon Els Life...
I thougt of him going to College etc. but Rebirth pretty drastically showed him as HIghschool Dropout, so I dont know..

But he can and should be also have a normal human life...

[Robotman]

I think Superboy has been a pretty successful character. Obviously introducing him in one of the most read comic stories of all time helped. He had a long solo book and has appeared in team books for many years. Plus the Young Justice cartoon gave him a whole new fanbase. I think DC has actually done pretty well by Kon El. They’re getting the most out of a character who is an offshoot of Superman.

I don’t think Superboy is a good Spider-Man counterpart. Yeah he occupies the young brash but also unsure hero role but so do a lot of other characters. Superboy was pitted against Spider-Man in DC vs Marvel because at the time Spider-Man was a clone and it worked with Kon’s origin. Plus DC didn’t really have a character that was analogous to Spider-Man. Since then they’ve introduced Blue Beetle, Kyle Rayner, etc who have occupied the “Spider-Man role” of the young average joe who gains incredible power.

[Masterff]

I think Superboy has been a pretty successful character. Obviously introducing him in one of the most read comic stories of all time helped. He had a long solo book and has appeared in team books for many years. Plus the Young Justice cartoon gave him a whole new fanbase. I think DC has actually done pretty well by Kon El. They’re getting the most out of a character who is an offshoot of Superman.

No....just simply take Nightwing...Nightwing started as Robin, as Batmans Sidekick and became then Nightwing, a fan favorite character, who sold more Comic Books in the 90ies than Wonder Woman and many other big names...

And also Superboys first Comic Series worked well and he sold at most Comics as Wonder Woman and Nightwing at some Point
https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...6/1996-09.html
43,000 Comics sold is HUGE...

Problem is that the first Solo-Series was good, successfull and cool, but then he was resettled in Smallville which just limited his possibilities, because its a small city, he didnt have this villains etc.
Another Problem was the change of his character, first he was well balanced,sarcastic,but also smart and cool....then he became a clown for a while......then he found out that he was a clone and became angsty, insecure etc.

I am still hoping that they bring sometimes a Solo-Series with a 23 Year old Conner and let him go the Nightwing Route...a town of his own, his own villains (like in the first Superboy Series where he was in Hawaii and had iconic Villains like King Shark and Knockout)...

The NEW52 Version of Superman was a good idea for a take on a young Superman....

[Konja7]

I searched for some sales numbers:

https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...6/1996-09.html
1996
Wonder Woman had 45.300
Superboy had 43.100

https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...9/1999-01.html
1999
Superboy had circa 26.300
Wonder Woman had circa 28.500

https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...1/2001-06.html
2001
Superboy had 23.000
Wonder Woman had circa 33.200

so for some time Superboy and Wonder Woman were close if you count the sold comics...

Yeah. I have search for those numbers too. That's why I said Kon-El wasn't so popular at the END of his run.

For example: Superboy in January 2002 had 18,009

https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...2/2002-01.html

Also, Wonder Woman isn't really a extremely good seller of comics (she has more importance outside comics).

And also Superboys first Comic Series worked well and he sold at most Comics as Wonder Woman and Nightwing at some Point
https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...6/1996-09.html
43,000 Comics sold is HUGE...

Problem is that the first Solo-Series was good, successfull and cool, but then he was resettled in Smallville which just limited his possibilities, because its a small city, he didnt have this villains etc.
Another Problem was the change of his character, first he was well balanced,sarcastic,but also smart and cool....then he became a clown for a while......then he found out that he was a clone and became angsty, insecure etc.

Again, Superboy run wasn't really succesful at the end that's why the changes in the character happened.

Not to mention that Superboy sales weren't constant. As you said, Superboy had 43,103 in September 1996, but Superboy had 37,472 in October 1996 (and these sales continue to fall in next months).

https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...6/1996-10.html

[Jim Kelly]

Kon-El's Superboy career got derailed by legal issues, when the Siegel and Shuster families were fighting with DC and Warner over the Superboy copyright. There was a time when DC was scared of using the Superboy name. They made Superboy-Prime into Superman-Prime, Conner Kent was killed off and the animated Legion had a young Superman not Superboy.

That probably set back the Superboy franchise enough to make it hard for Kon-El when he finally did come back, once all the legal woes were sorted.

[Kuwagaton]

Yeah. I have search for those numbers too. That's why I said Kon-El wasn't so popular at the END of his run.

For example: Superboy in January 2002 had 18,009

https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...2/2002-01.html

Also, Wonder Woman isn't really a extremely good seller of comics (she has more importance outside comics).



Again, Superboy run wasn't really succesful at the end that's why the changes in the character happened.

Not to mention that Superboy sales weren't constant. As you said, Superboy had 43,103 in September 1996, but Superboy had 37,472 in October 1996 (and these sales continue to fall in next months).

https://www.comichron.com/monthlycom...6/1996-10.html

There are things those numbers don't really tell you. By the math of those drops and rankings you'd say things were looking rough, but the title went another six years in addition to spin offs and features in other titles. The end of the run, and I remember Kelly not being as big a boost as they probably expected, was after 100 issues. Pretty impressive for a Superman spin off. By that point there was a creative mess, lack of strong direction, and none of that Death Of momentum.

[Masterff]

There are things those numbers don't really tell you. By the math of those drops and rankings you'd say things were looking rough, but the title went another six years in addition to spin offs and features in other titles. The end of the run, and I remember Kelly not being as big a boost as they probably expected, was after 100 issues. Pretty impressive for a Superman spin off. By that point there was a creative mess, lack of strong direction, and none of that Death Of momentum.

Yes AND as far as I remind this was also after the Hawaii Arc which worked well and had good sales and was interesting...

Then he got away from Hawaii, got the strange looking new outfit, became more a clown, who almost behaved childish etc.

I also think that all the cool things (King Shark,Knockout etc.) happened BEFORE 2001 etc.


I would still say if you recreate this funny,easy going feeling of 1996, mix it up with a more serious Kon El and add iconic Villains and a town of his own you would get a nice series..

[Tzigone]

Understand I binge-read all these in back issues, rather than at the time, so that impacts my perceptions.

I really liked his Hawaii run. He was growing a lot then. He was such a brat when he was born. And he grew by leaps and bounds, he really did, during first couple weeks of life. And he still had a long way to go, and his series was for that. And it was good. Roxy, who started started as a stock character was very well developed and I really liked where she was going (becoming a cop). Dubbilex got some humor. Rex, I really wanted to get his comeuppance. And not take Roxy down with him. He was not harmless, despite being a buffoon.

Tana started strong, but frankly I didn't think really went anywhere. She got much development outside "the girlfriend." Which, they mostly ignored the extremely problematic age difference. One place it really did work well (and a reason I'd wouldn't care to de-age her in a reboot) was in comparison/contrast to Knockout. They were both adult women, and both women Superboy was attracted to. But they treated him completely differently. Tana was all about being responsible, studying, etc. Knockout told him good to jut have a good time. And, I think importantly, Tana wasn't having sex with him. That was something he most assuredly perceived as on the table with Knockout. And it wasn't just lust - the guy could have found a girl to sleep with him. She was fun and told him what he wanted to hear. She didn't much hide what she was, but he chose to perceive only what he wanted to see, becuase it he liked her. I think, despite a misstep in execution, the arc with Knockout worked well. Making that mistake, learning from it, was important. But I also think it was important that he lost something in choosing Knockout (relationship with Tana), and that he shouldn't have gotten it back.

Tana, alas, got brought back for a crappy end that was then made even more crappy by clones and by actually being even more meaningless by Westfield not even being Kon's dna donor.

Then switched to horrible art. But we introduced Match (and frankly, I'm kinda over that kind of Reverse Flash villain, who's so the same but not as hero), and we introduced the non-aging element. Now it does provide angst. The question is whether that's good or not. I have less tolerance for angst the older I get. I might have liked it as a teen. I thought it was well-used in an issue or two of Young Justice (they all knew he was in denial). And well in a conversation with Superman, where Superboy thinks he's pointless. As a temporary storyline, it might work (though maybe feel cheaty if reversed too soon?). But it had two major drawbacks. First, it felt sort of like an effort to keep him Superboy, and have him never grow up (in terms of keeping title viable). That's a negative to me, as I like growth. Second, he reacted by acting out and becoming more immature. It's reversing growth. While I understand what the writer was going for (it wasn't supposed to be likable), it was irritating to read the character. I didn't enjoy it anymore in the immediate aftermath, as he was quite bratty sometimes in a way he'd already outgrown.

The Hawaii days are absolutely the best (well, Kesel's run). Then somebody decided a change-up was necessary, and for me things went down hill. I get attached to supporting casts. I read YJ, but only a few of the Superboy after he moved to Cadmus. I just wasn't interested anymore. I have read a few later issues (looking for specific things), but not most.

My sister kept reading longer. She got an issue and half into Joe Kelly's run and said Superboy was so extremely unlikable she wasn't reading anymore.

One thing I think I differ in than most is that I like the early set-up. He wasn't a clone of Superman (and wasn't related to Luthor and had no code words to control him). Didn't have Superman's powers. Tactile telekinesis was different. He was more his own person. The fist issue tagline was "Most definitely not the adventures of Superman when he was a boy!" I did like the idea of Superman giving him his name as an adopted relative, and I think that got detracted from later. The was a very big aspect, from the time he found out he wasn't a clone of Superman, focusing on the idea that, despite he was "made for" he should not try to grow up to replace Superman, but rather forge own identity instead of being a replacement for the big guy. So I felt like giving him Superman's powers, Superman's hometown, and even Superman's parents and a Luthor to hang around really diminished him. It, to me, made him less individual and more adjunct.

Plus, like I said, I have less tolerance for constant/unremitting angst these days. Some angst for flavor, sure, but not so much as to bog down the book/character issue after issue and issue.

[Vordan]

DC has a bad habit of turning the Superfamily into Clark clones (and I get how ironic that is talking about modern Kon). Kara wears glasses to disguise herself, lives with adopted parents, and works for a media company. Why? Did Krypton have a media system? Where is Kara’s interest in journalism/reporting coming from? The meta reason is because the TV show chose to make her into FemClark and the comics have synergized with that, but it never really felt true to me.

Kon wearing glasses and going to Smallville High felt like a case of DC wanting some synergy with the Smallville show more than anyone else. There were some good stories from that era, but I don’t really see that as what Kon would or frankly should be doing. I’m glad about Kon ditching that status quo now.