The current status of the Spider-Man rogues gallery

[Tendrin]

i...don't know how accurate this is, but the idea of a working class genius like peter (or any superhero in that category) that has a bias against intellectual villains is interesting.

Boots, your inbox. Make sure you clear your 'sent' messages too. XD

[Revolutionary_Jack]

yep. all the examples you mentioned came to mind, it's an interesting little tapestry.

Spider-Man villains don't really entirely fit one pattern. People bring up that the villains are animal totems but that's only some. There's nothing animal about Sandman, Electro, Green Goblin, the Shocker, Mysterio. The usual common factor is that all of them are much older than Peter and there aren't any major villains who are Peter's age.

anti-intellectualism can exist anywhere, but i agree that the dork/nerd/geek thing has its own life in america. a few working class "nerds" i knew growing up either felt pressured to hide the fact or (in 2 cases) turn criminal in order to feel accepted. which was crazy, because one of them was mensa material and such a sweet guy in the early years of high school.

You can see in Peter's story a lot of anxiety about being an intellectual and so on. Peter's first choice after getting his spider powers was to become basically a Proto-Justin Bieber. I always feel that people neglect that when they decide that Peter's the scientist and so on. Nope his first instinct after having getting superpowers isn't researching or anything, it's all "I'mma be the main event".

the nouveau riche supervillain.

The idea of a Romani kid having a name like Victor von Doom is a huge joke. The whole "von" thing (which I'm sure Stan Lee put in naively without a lot of thought) is a distinct specific German-Austrian-Central European aristocratic title. To get it you had to be part of the Almanach von Gotha, which was a calendar that traced the records and lineages of aristocratic families. Historically the Almanach and its archives were deliberately burnt and destroyed by the Red Army when they invaded Germany as a specific commie f--k you to their class enemies. So you can actually find a reason for how Victor has manufactured these origins.

I think Stan Lee was inspired by memories of the actor Erich von Stroheim who played Prussian villains in American movies and he was promoted back then as "the man you love to hate". People thought that Stroheim was this actual Prussian aristocrat but in actual fact he was a poor Jewish peasant from Austria who when he arrived in America, used his funny accent to make himself out to be the aristocrat that he never had the chance to be back home.

[Zeitgeist]

Because at times he still seemed to be aware of how terrible Otto is and how bad the things he does are but at other times he also couldn't help himself from showing off just how awesome and "superior" Otto was.

I'm sorry, can you actually cite any specific moments where Otto was propped up as being more "superior" than how Peter acts under the mask?
I remember that argument being run by fans worried that Peter was somehow being superseded or shown up rather than actually waiting to judge after the storyline was over, but after all was said and done I can't think of one example at the end of the story where Otto did anything a better way - in fact the explicit message of the story was that Peter's way is the superior way and that Otto's shortcuts and lack of conviction to a moral code eventually piled up on him.

If one of the examples is "Otto went and got a doctorate under Peter's guise", remember how he automated his crime-fighting to do so. Short term gain, long term loss.

[WebSlingWonder]

I'm sorry, can you actually cite any specific moments where Otto was propped up as being more "superior" than how Peter acts under the mask?
I remember that argument being run by fans worried that Peter was somehow being superseded or shown up rather than actually waiting to judge after the storyline was over, but after all was said and done I can't think of one example at the end of the story where Otto did anything a better way - in fact the explicit message of the story was that Peter's way is the superior way and that Otto's shortcuts and lack of conviction to a moral code eventually piled up on him.

If one of the examples is "Otto went and got a doctorate under Peter's guise", remember how he automated his crime-fighting to do so. Short term gain, long term loss.

There was one blatant example that I remember: in "Superior" #8, Peter holds Otto back from operating on a little girl because he didn't feel it was safe while Otto took the plunge anyway. That showed that Peter's cautiousness sometimes may look like selfishness. I remember these boards flipped out when they read that story.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

There was one blatant example that I remember: in "Superior" #8, Peter holds Otto back from operating on a little girl because he didn't feel it was safe while Otto took the plunge anyway. That showed that Peter's cautiousness sometimes may look like selfishness. I remember these boards flipped out when they read that story.

Yeah, that story and Superior #9 was really bad. The problem with Slott is that he always puts plot over character. He likes to make things unpredictable and so on, and throw curveballs and do things, but the problem is that Slott throws existing characterization under the bus, and then makes out his curveballs as big character defining moments when in fact they are curveballs, and provides little actual consequences for doing that later on. In the case of Superior, after Peter's "death", he introduces him as a force ghost for most of the earlier Superior stories and the expectation is that this Peter would eventually reassert control over Otto's body and so on. So the obvious unexpected thing is for Otto to get full control and so on. And since Otto is the protagonist, Slott has to sell this as a moral victory for Otto even if it makes zero sense.

I remember that argument being run by fans worried that Peter was somehow being superseded or shown up rather than actually waiting to judge after the storyline was over,

Given that Superior Spider-Man is a meandering ongoing, rather than a fixed event story with a properly defined beginning-middle-end (like Spencer's Hunted, or KLH), it didn't deserve the benefit of the doubt since readers had no idea that this would end anytime soon and have a payoff eventually. The idea of "waiting to judge after the storyline was over" simply doesn't qualify as a defense since we weren't told from the start how long that mess was going to last. And as we now know, Slott intended Superior to continue for longer than it did, it was only the Garfield Spidey sequel, and the fact that everyone at Marvel went "Yeah, no" on his idea to do Spider-Verse with Otto, that made him end Superior so early, and in a fairly half-a--ed manner at that.

in fact the explicit message of the story was that Peter's way is the superior way and that Otto's shortcuts and lack of conviction to a moral code eventually piled up on him.

Why does Otto have an ongoing titled Superior Spider-Man Vol. 2 written by Christos Gage as a sequel to that story then? Obviously the answer is that the moral message was poorly executed and unconvincing. The actual moral message that Slott puts out is simply not convincing because it still centers on Anna mourning Otto's death when again he was a creep to her, and of course at the end, Peter is still blamed by the narrative and accepts blame from Carlie and MJ for Otto stealing his body and we are supposed to see that Peter having his body stolen is somehow his fault, especially since he doesn't blame Otto, nor does he dismantle that company and return that doctorate as he should have done.

If one of the examples is "Otto went and got a doctorate under Peter's guise", remember how he automated his crime-fighting to do so. Short term gain, long term loss.

Considering that Peter ended becoming a corporate guy based on Otto's plagiarized doctorate and phony company, I am going to say that moral message wasn't properly executed either. It took Nick Spencer to call out Peter for keeping a plagiarized doctorate and company which Slott openly showed as a positive and progressive direction for Peter to take.

[Zeitgeist]

There was one blatant example that I remember: in "Superior" #8, Peter holds Otto back from operating on a little girl because he didn't feel it was safe while Otto took the plunge anyway. That showed that Peter's cautiousness sometimes may look like selfishness. I remember these boards flipped out when they read that story.

More or less a device inserted to lead the reader into considering that Otto's overall methodologies have merit. He was successful in this instance but on the overall net whole, not so much. Peter was right to be cautious to a fair degree.

Given that Superior Spider-Man is a meandering ongoing, rather than a fixed event story with a properly defined beginning-middle-end (like Spencer's Hunted, or KLH), it didn't deserve the benefit of the doubt since readers had no idea that this would end anytime soon and have a payoff eventually.

It was quite obviously going to be a semi-contained event and many people could tell as such - I can at least vouch for myself, who was right here saying as such at the time. Anyone that didn't think it'd have a payoff or end either hadn't read a modern comic before or were too caught up in being theatrical about their feelings to apply a bit of sense to the situation.

The idea of "waiting to judge after the storyline was over" simply doesn't qualify as a defense since we weren't told from the start how long that mess was going to last.

Sure it does. If anyone though a book re-branded with a completely new name over the classic one was going to be a long term fixture, then that's on them and I have some sand in the Sahara to sell y'all.

And as we now know, Slott intended Superior to continue for longer than it did, it was only the Garfield Spidey sequel, and the fact that everyone at Marvel went "Yeah, no" on his idea to do Spider-Verse with Otto, that made him end Superior so early, and in a fairly half-a--ed manner at that.

This is all news to me, but the thing to take away here is that it had an end planned either way.

Why does Otto have an ongoing titled Superior Spider-Man Vol. 2 written by Christos Gage as a sequel to that story then?

Because that was then and this is now. Slott had his message as a through-line for the series , as Cage now has his own. Different writers.

Considering that Peter ended becoming a corporate guy based on Otto's plagiarized doctorate and phony company, I am going to say that moral message wasn't properly executed either.

That's funny, I'd say that a story where Peter decides to take shortcuts inadvertently handed to him by Otto only to have it bite him in the ass absolutely reinforces the same message. But other than that I consider the message of the first Superior run pretty self contained.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

More or less a device inserted to lead the reader into considering that Otto's overall methodologies have merit.

Executed by plot contrivance rather than actual character beat that felt earned, in other words.

Anyone that didn't think it'd have a payoff or end either hadn't read a modern comic before or were too caught up in being theatrical about their feelings to apply a bit of sense to the situation.

Having Peter Parker not be the main 616 Spider-Man for more than 1 real time year had never happened before.

This is all news to me, but the thing to take away here is that it had an end planned either way.

The thing to actually take away is that the story we have now is blatantly not ending on Slott's terms, and that alone invalidates Superior as a self-contained story. Slott didn't go in with a proper beginning-middle-end, he went in with a gimmick that he wanted to see how long he could sustain and build on. So judged on that, Superior is blatantly not a story building to its stated conclusion of Peter being the "better" Spider-Man, what it is is a story of how long Otto, and by extension Slott, can keep doing this.

Because that was then and this is now. Slott had his message as a through-line for the series , as Cage now has his own. Different writers.

Chris Gage co-wrote the closing issues of Superior, including the one which had the moral triumph that Peter had. If Gage is going in another direction, that means even he didn't believe in that.

That's funny, I'd say that a story where Peter decides to take shortcuts inadvertently handed to him by Otto only to have it bite him in the ass absolutely reinforces the same message.

A story that Nick Spencer told, and not Dan Slott.

[Snoop Dogg]

Fact time! Superior was always going to end around TASM2 for the relaunch. That was always the plan. The change was that Otto was going to lead Spider-Verse, then Alonso at the last minute felt it should be for Peter, so they replaced it with the 2099 story that introduced the mechanics for getting Otto in Spider-Verse and the Venom arc. The ending of the Venom arc revealing that Peter's ghost has returned was going to be at the end of the original Spider-Verse. The beat was going to be there because the beat had to be there because Superior was about to end!

Superior was planned from beginning to end, and everyone knew it was going to end. The idea that started arguments was Slott telling other writers that Otto was Spider-Man for a year and a half, they could not write Peter, and those arguments ended when books with Otto as a guest started selling better. The two Spider-Verse lead-in issues of Superior only existed because Marvel wanted the money to make up for a loss in a month. He didn't plan for them to exist. It is a story with a beginning, a middle, and an end. His writing style is architect, not gardener. And that doesn't magically change because Superior is cool.

The point of the original run was that Otto did not know why Peter was superior until the very end, where he learned his lesson and then had to kill himself. His arrogance let the situation escalate and his cold, calculating mind could prevent him from doing the right thing. The version of Otto we have now did not learn that lesson, and that is the driving force behind all of the new Gage stuff. That he has to learn again.

Peter did get bitten in the ass for taking PI in Slott's run, the PI literally turns into an OO, he has to destroy everything, the public hates him, and he's sleeping on a couch. I really like the idea that Peter, the supposed imperfect everyman superhero, wouldn't go on with the company and the success inadvertently granted to him by someone who tried to kill him and stole his life when no real person on this planet would screw themselves over like that. And the idea that Peter, the character who's entire career history is based on fraud and the abandonment of journalistic ethics and integrity justified solely by Jonah being an ass, would suddenly truly believe in honesty above all else and turn in the diploma for the sanctity of his dead enemy is more appropriate for Spider-Jesus of Earth-888.

[Tendrin]

Fact time! .

Where's that damn like button?

[Snoop Dogg]

"This was a story that I pitched to them going--

'When we hit #700, Spider-Man is cancelled. We come back with #1, it's Superior. And we run with Superior all the way up to... the second Amazing Spider-Man movie when there's going to be a MILLION people out there getting all this free publicity and all these posters and all these movie trailers and everyone going Spider-Man Spider-Man Spider-Man-- That's when we bring back Peter Parker.'

That was always part of the plan. Even though I knew it was going to be 31-32 issues, I knew it was going to be 31-32 issues that told a complete arc."

43:30

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Superior was always going to end around TASM2 for the relaunch. That was always the plan.

Nope. Slott said elsewhere that he wanted Superior to go on for longer than intended and Spider-Verse was always to have featured Otto rather than 616 Peter. Being part of the plan doesn't explain why the finale of Superior was co-written by Chris Gage and not him, if he believed in it so much and why the ending of Superior is obviously super-rushed as many people have pointed out, including Slott's own admirers like Marc Ginocchio.

And the idea that Peter, the character who's entire career history is based on fraud and the abandonment of journalistic ethics and integrity justified solely by Jonah being an ass, would suddenly truly believe in honesty above all else and turn in the diploma for the sanctity of his dead enemy is more appropriate for Spider-Jesus of Earth-888.

That shows a frightening level of moral equivocation and total lack of understanding of any ethics, and ignorance of actual photojournalism. Peter taking pictures of Spider-Man and giving it to Jonah and asking to be paid is fine because A) Peter did take those pictures, B) Jonah wanted Pictures of Spider-Man, C) That is Spider-Man in those pictures. None of those three things are untrue. Even the bit in the early comics where Peter occassionally staged some shots of Spider-Man is fine because real photographers and journalists did that all the time back then, a lot of great photographers like Robert Capa and others would stage photographs and images and it was accepted if what it represented was indicative of the general truth.

Peter profiting of a degree he didn't earn with his name on it, is plagiarism pure and simple.

[Snoop Dogg]

Everything co-written by Gage is co-written because Gage is helping to script. The plots are Slott's. It's a production thing because Slott is a slow scripter. That's why they're together all the time. That's why he has other co-writers at times.

https://www.nydailynews.com/entertai...icle-1.1575793

"He did, however, cave under the pressure when he met actor Andrew Garfield on the set of 'Amazing Spider-Man 2.' After the actor who plays Parker on the big screen expressed his shock over the death of the beloved character, Slott admits he dropped some secretive hints.

'(Parker's coming back) just in time, fancy that, for a major Spider-Man motion picture,' quipped Slott. 'It seems uncanny. It was very nice for Sony to schedule the movie around the story.'"

https://www.newsarama.com/21668-sdcc...anel-live.html

"When I pitched it, they said they wanted to make it much shorter, probably only 6 issues or 12 at the most, and I said, no, I can keep this going until the movie, then we'll have Amazing Spider-Man #1 right before the movie!

I actually originally pitched Spider-Verse as a Superior Spider-Man story, and there was a big fight at the retreat saying, 'You only get one chance to do this, and you're not doing it without Peter Parker.' So Spider-Verse got picked up, air-lifted and retooled. So that's the closest to an editorial mandate I've dealt with - but they eventually won me over. You can't have every Spider-Man in existence and not have 616 Peter Parker."

https://www-m.cnn.com/2014/04/29/sho...rns/index.html

"Dan Slott: With 'Superior Spider-Man,' we took Peter away from everybody for a year. And we showed you how having someone who should never be Spider-Man be Spider-Man, how much you'd miss Peter Parker. And now he's back! Just in time for the movie. It's almost like we planned it.

Originally, when we were planning out Superior Spider-Man, editorial was like 'This is a six-issue arc,' and we said 'No, we can go longer than that.' Then it was 'OK a year,' and then we said, 'You know if we go a little further, we can make it to the movie!' It was a lot of faith from Marvel editorial, and I'm grateful they let me try it."

Feeling that Goblin Nation was rushed does not equal it was not planned. I think Siege is too short. I don't think that's because it wasn't planned, I think it was because they had one artist and limited schedule space. A story that ends with Green Goblin tearing apart the Superior Spider-Man that teased every other month starting with #4(!) that Green Goblin was going to tear apart Superior Spider-Man was likely planned to end with Green Goblin tearing apart Superior Spider-Man. Especially from a writer who's entire Spider-Man run and career is based around long overarching arcs with planned and clearly delineated beginnings and endings.

Spider-Man's career as a journalist is built upon a deception. The deception is fueled by the idea that he can profit off of his heroic exploits by manipulating his publisher because it a convenient and efficient method of making money that he needs. He accepts this deception in part because it directly hurts no one and in part because of his heated relationship with said-publisher, and the presentation of said publisher as a generally arrogant and boisterous ass is why we as the audience have no issue with it.

Despite continuing with said deception for years, why would Peter intentionally self-sabotage his new success when no one is hurt by it, the only thing cost is the already ruined reputation of a publicly reviled supervillain who tried to destroy the planet and personally stole his life, and he can, in fact, use his new resources to help people and make the world better? In this exact same position, it is absolutely absurd that any common person would throw away this opportunity, unless honesty above all was imprinted upon them by the Lord, and it is equally ridiculous to expect this of Peter Parker, a young inventor who has struggled with money for his entire adult life who is primarily driven by the idea that he has a responsibility to do as much as he can who has already used deception to sustain a career for years instead of getting a normal job who is also not Jesus/Captain America.

It is such a specific and astronomically high moral expectation, that I cannot see him doing it even if Uncle Ben's floating guilt head was omnipresent. Even when he gets caught, his biggest regret is the disappointment it has caused his Aunt and his job. He's not even fussed about stealing the work, instead frustrated because he already knew all that stuff.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Everything co-written by Gage is co-written because Gage is helping to script. The plots are Slott's. It's a production thing because Slott is a slow scripter. That's why they're together all the time. That's why he has other co-writers at times.

Well Bendis and Spencer seem to do all their own writing. And I can imagine some fill-in issues but the finale of your defining series.

Especially from a writer who's entire Spider-Man run and career is based around long overarching arcs with planned and clearly delineated beginnings and endings.

That's not true. Superior Spider-Man owes itself to a plot idea that Slott came up with when he saw the artwork for ASM#600. That wasn't planned from the start at all. Stuff like Hickman's Secret Wars and Spencer's Secret Empire which ultimately affected his run couldn't possibly have been planned in advance.

And again, those quotes you excerpt confirm that Slott wanted to extend Superior as long as possible and that he didn't end his story with Ock as he intended to. That's what those quotes plainly state. You are just editorializing it to minimize it.

Spider-Man's career as a journalist is built upon a deception. The deception is fueled by the idea that he can profit off of his heroic exploits by manipulating his publisher because it a convenient and efficient method of making money that he needs.

The deception is fueled because as clearly told and shown in ASM#1 Peter Parker is f--king poor and needs money to help his Aunt and that's the only way he has to monetize his powers and still be good.

the presentation of said publisher as a generally arrogant and boisterous ass is why we as the audience have no issue with it.

It couldn't be the fact that Peter's using said money to help his poor Aunt, or that he uses his powers to save people and stop worse people and save lives (including that of Jameson's son and Jameson himself) many times over, now could it? That's the reason we support it. And again, it's still Peter taking those photos, it's the actual Spider-Man in those photos. At the end of the day, Peter sold Jameson the genuine article that he paid for, "pictures of Spider-Man" that Peter took and which are better than anyone else's.

It is such a specific and astronomically high moral expectation, that I cannot see him doing it even if Uncle Ben's floating guilt head was omnipresent. Even when he gets caught, his biggest regret is the disappointment it has caused his Aunt and his job. He's not even fussed about stealing the work, instead frustrated because he already knew all that stuff.

I think you need to read Spencer's ASM #1 again. Peter says clearly that for him the big issue is not that he acts but that he failed to act and he equates not turning in his degree with letting the burglar go. He sees that as his mistake and agrees that whatever consequences he faces aren't unfair but just ones.

[WebSlingWonder]

Honestly, I agree with Revolutionary_Jack. As much as I like "Superior", it was not Slott's best showing as a writer nor did it help with his interpretation of Peter's character.

[Mister Mets]

Nope. Slott said elsewhere that he wanted Superior to go on for longer than intended and Spider-Verse was always to have featured Otto rather than 616 Peter. Being part of the plan doesn't explain why the finale of Superior was co-written by Chris Gage and not him, if he believed in it so much and why the ending of Superior is obviously super-rushed as many people have pointed out, including Slott's own admirers like Marc Ginocchio.




That shows a frightening level of moral equivocation and total lack of understanding of any ethics, and ignorance of actual photojournalism. Peter taking pictures of Spider-Man and giving it to Jonah and asking to be paid is fine because A) Peter did take those pictures, B) Jonah wanted Pictures of Spider-Man, C) That is Spider-Man in those pictures. None of those three things are untrue. Even the bit in the early comics where Peter occassionally staged some shots of Spider-Man is fine because real photographers and journalists did that all the time back then, a lot of great photographers like Robert Capa and others would stage photographs and images and it was accepted if what it represented was indicative of the general truth.

Peter profiting of a degree he didn't earn with his name on it, is plagiarism pure and simple.

While Slott wanted Spider-Verse to feature Otto, the story was supposed to be published earlier. In the schedule, it was swapped out with the Spider-Man 2099 and Venom stories.

https://twitter.com/DanSlott/status/1099805251488702471

Well Bendis and Spencer seem to do all their own writing. And I can imagine some fill-in issues but the finale of your defining series.



That's not true. Superior Spider-Man owes itself to a plot idea that Slott came up with when he saw the artwork for ASM#600. That wasn't planned from the start at all. Stuff like Hickman's Secret Wars and Spencer's Secret Empire which ultimately affected his run couldn't possibly have been planned in advance.

And again, those quotes you excerpt confirm that Slott wanted to extend Superior as long as possible and that he didn't end his story with Ock as he intended to. That's what those quotes plainly state. You are just editorializing it to minimize it.



The deception is fueled because as clearly told and shown in ASM#1 Peter Parker is f--king poor and needs money to help his Aunt and that's the only way he has to monetize his powers and still be good.



It couldn't be the fact that Peter's using said money to help his poor Aunt, or that he uses his powers to save people and stop worse people and save lives (including that of Jameson's son and Jameson himself) many times over, now could it? That's the reason we support it. And again, it's still Peter taking those photos, it's the actual Spider-Man in those photos. At the end of the day, Peter sold Jameson the genuine article that he paid for, "pictures of Spider-Man" that Peter took and which are better than anyone else's.



I think you need to read Spencer's ASM #1 again. Peter says clearly that for him the big issue is not that he acts but that he failed to act and he equates not turning in his degree with letting the burglar go. He sees that as his mistake and agrees that whatever consequences he faces aren't unfair but just ones.

Amazing Spider-Man #600 was published July 22 2009. So Slott had the basic concept of Superior Spider-Man in mind three and a half years before Amazing Spider-Man #698 was published (November 21 2012), and over an year before his solo run started with Amazing Spider-Man #648 (November 20 2010.)

I think it's fair to say the story was planned out well in advance, and that it's an example of a long overarching arc.