The current status of the Spider-Man rogues gallery

[Michael Watkins]

his rogues are being used because he has good rogues. and they just introduced the new Centipede Demon guy. Peter almost has too many villains to choose from.

[PCN24454]

Spider-Man has enough villains that it only weakens his gallery to only rely on on story arc villains.

Despite not liking Spencer’s run, I’m glad that it looks like he’s making certain villains heel-face turns stick cause it really gets old to see them flip flop between hero and villain constantly. It also gets really banal given time.

[Frontier]

Dr. Octopus being taken out of commission is a major problem, one I expect will be corrected by the time the third Sony-Marvel Spidey movie and the Sinister Six show up. Eventually he's gonna have to go back to the character he was intended by his co-creators as this thug scientist unworthy and undeserving of depth. You can't do a satisfying Spider-Man story with a sympathetic Ock. My guess is that it will happen sooner rather than later. Right now, there's this second series with Christos Gage writing Superior. Eventually that will wrap up. And when that happens, Ock's gonna default back to who he was.

I was almost tempted to say we'll probably see proper Doctor Octopus again if he pops up in the MCU, although I don't think Marvel is that synergy-direct anymore.

[Michael Watkins]

hope it's not any time soon. Superior Spider-man is one of my most consistently good reads every month.

[GSman]

Dr. Octopus being taken out of commission is a major problem, one I expect will be corrected by the time the third Sony-Marvel Spidey movie and the Sinister Six show up. Eventually he's gonna have to go back to the character he was intended by his co-creators as this thug scientist unworthy and undeserving of depth. You can't do a satisfying Spider-Man story with a sympathetic Ock. My guess is that it will happen sooner rather than later. Right now, there's this second series with Christos Gage writing Superior. Eventually that will wrap up. And when that happens, Ock's gonna default back to who he was.

But in any case, Spider-Man's major villains being taken out of commission is a blessing in disguise, since it suits Nick Spencer's strengths. Nick Spencer loves small-time crooks, B and C list villains and making you care for them and writing good stories with them. A major arc tying in with Boomerang and the Superior Foes prolly won't be in the offing had there been major villains.

And I think expanding the lower-tier villains and rogues is the way forward.

To be honest, I hate the prospect of Otto going back to being a villain. They've done way more with Otto's character these past few years, then they have his entire existence IMO. He doesn't have to be a squeaky clean hero, they can make him go back to the Superior Octopus guise. And be the anti hero who Peter buts heads with. I just don't see what benefit there is of Otto going back and reverting. Otto's changed so much and has become a compelling character, why ruin it? Especially since Marvel's put way more effort into Otto's redemption than they have other villains, 6 years and counting. Is it too optimistic for him to end up like Venom? He was originally intended to just be a villain but he's changed and outgrew that role, And is independent of Spider-Man. Yet people outside of comics, consider him to mainly be another spider villain, based mostly from other medias such as the cartoons and games.

Again, not saying Otto has to be a squeaky clean good guy, but it'd be a shame to see all his development go out the window.

[Michael Watkins]

it's going to take something pretty horrific to re-solidify Otto as a villain. would any writer be up to that task? it would take a fridging.

[comicscollector]

To me Spider-Man have the best villains gallery,so even now with Doctor Octopus not being a villain anymore.The variety of other villains of Spider-Man does not make me think that the Spider-Man stories will be in lack of villains.

[KROENEN]

hope it's not any time soon. Superior Spider-man is one of my most consistently good reads every month.

Same here, I can understand bemoaning the loss of a great Spider-man villain, Doc Oct was at the top of the rogues list for me, but I find Superior Spider-Man very entertaining and well written, and would not want to give up on that character anytime soon. It's Spider-man as the jerk menace Jameson always said he was...but he's trying . As long as it's interesting and resonates maybe they can have someone else fill the role of Doc Oct in as villain for a while.

[Frontier]

To be honest, I hate the prospect of Otto going back to being a villain. They've done way more with Otto's character these past few years, then they have his entire existence IMO. He doesn't have to be a squeaky clean hero, they can make him go back to the Superior Octopus guise. And be the anti hero who Peter buts heads with. I just don't see what benefit there is of Otto going back and reverting. Otto's changed so much and has become a compelling character, why ruin it? Especially since Marvel's put way more effort into Otto's redemption than they have other villains, 6 years and counting. Is it too optimistic for him to end up like Venom? He was originally intended to just be a villain but he's changed and outgrew that role, And is independent of Spider-Man. Yet people outside of comics, consider him to mainly be another spider villain, based mostly from other medias such as the cartoons and games.

Again, not saying Otto has to be a squeaky clean good guy, but it'd be a shame to see all his development go out the window.

For me it's just that a lot of his development into an "anti-hero" just does not feel genuine to me.

Like, I get people love a good, snobby, pretentious anti-hero who basically applies Supervillain logic to being a Superhero...but to me that makes it come off that he's still basically Doc Ock, masquerading as a hero in a Spider-man costume to fulfill his own ego and prove he's better then Spider-Man. It means he basically "won" because he got to get away with the bodyjump thanks to his backup and never got any real comeuppance for anything he did to Peter, at least as far as this version of Otto is concerned.

And he and Peter are "straight" and there's no ill will to Otto being a Spider-Man and doing his own thing, which I just find extremely unbelievable after what Peter went through and what Otto did in his body.

Slott took a lot of effort to "redeem" Otto but went too far in my opinion.

it's going to take something pretty horrific to re-solidify Otto as a villain. would any writer be up to that task? it would take a fridging.

Fridging? You mean Anna Maria?

I don't think you'd need to go that far. Have Otto fail, hurt his ego, and he'll probably return to form sooner then later.

[protege]

Vulture has always been A-List, but he's prime material to be promoted to big boss, especially after his long time out of the book. Also, if they go ahead with all the villains being loyal to him, that was Otto's most significant contribution to the rogues, so you don't need him.

Norman will definitely be back, but using him more sparingly is better than having him be active all the time up to shenanigans. Peter/Norman stories should each be significant encounters, and when a new writer comes onto a book they shouldn't/don't just immediately carry on with more of what the last guy did.

Kingpin is a Spider-Man villain, and he hasn't been much of one in a while, but his new position as mayor makes him much more important to New York and by extension Spider-Man. So it would be a shame to not just tell stories about what he's doing with both Spider-Man and Daredevil.

Resurrected Kraven didn't really even qualify as a Spider-Man villain, and now we have a Kraven with a strong motivation to be one. So they can introduce that hunter element back to the book. By being new, he is also fresh.

Venom is his own franchise and Eddie is finally his own fleshed-out character, he and Spider-Man do not need each other and occupy different corners of Marvel now. We even now have another character who knows Peter's ID and is getting too close for comfort, and he's more powerful and twisted than Venom already.

Hobgoblin has fallen off, but I'd like for Nick to get to him, just for the dialogue.

Electro wasn't mentioned, so the whole replacement thing seems to be going well.

Centipede is the hot new big bad, and judging by Spencer's last big Marvel run, he will be a very good addition.

So the rogues gallery is still as good as it usually is, but with a lot of old classics getting their dust shaken off. But the real reason it's still good is that ASM continues to not just play the hits again and instead opts to experiment and let other books eat some of the food.

I don’t remember seeing centipede, but i’m interested in tarantula and white rabbit. And what happened to razorback? Oh, now i remember; the cloaked guy that’s been skulking about.

[GSman]

For me it's just that a lot of his development into an "anti-hero" just does not feel genuine to me.

Like, I get people love a good, snobby, pretentious anti-hero who basically applies Supervillain logic to being a Superhero...but to me that makes it come off that he's still basically Doc Ock, masquerading as a hero in a Spider-man costume to fulfill his own ego and prove he's better then Spider-Man. It means he basically "won" because he got to get away with the bodyjump thanks to his backup and never got any real comeuppance for anything he did to Peter, at least as far as this version of Otto is concerned.

And he and Peter are "straight" and there's no ill will to Otto being a Spider-Man and doing his own thing, which I just find extremely unbelievable after what Peter went through and what Otto did in his body.

Slott took a lot of effort to "redeem" Otto but went too far in my opinion.

Fridging? You mean Anna Maria?

I don't think you'd need to go that far. Have Otto fail, hurt his ego, and he'll probably return to form sooner then later.

It's all a matter of opinion, I guess, but so far at least from my perspective Otto's come leaps and bounds. And I think his newest series is evident of that. So I see a common complaint is that Otto didn't get his comeuppance, but he did technically, just at the end of the original run, he died he admitted defeat, he admitted Peter was his better. Technically the Otto we have now didn't experience that, but we know it's something he's capable of now. And I get the complaint about Otto, scrolling around in a spider suit, (personally I wish he kept the Superior Octopus suit) but he's not doing it to prove he's the better than Peter now, at least that's not what he's shown so far. So far he's way more humble now.

Also him and Peter patching things up, isn't too far fetched, Peter's been in his head he knows Otto has a capacity for good. Also let's not forget Peter took a bullet for Norman a guy who's arguably way worse than Otto and has screwed with him way worse. let's not forget he also made a deal with Venom back in the 90s to stay out of each other's way even though he's a murderer himself.

Otto's fight against Terrax recently is the biggest evidence he's changed. He was willing to die to stop terrax, and he likely would have if Anna didn't help. But he was able to beat him and save a ton of lives, and I don't think Peter is one to object, so what if Otto's wearing a spider suit, what's most important is that he's saving lives instead of killing.

[Frontier]

It's all a matter of opinion, I guess, but so far at least from my perspective Otto's come leaps and bounds. And I think his newest series is evident of that. So I see a common complaint is that Otto didn't get his comeuppance, but he did technically, just at the end of the original run, he died he admitted defeat, he admitted Peter was his better. Technically the Otto we have now didn't experience that, but we know it's something he's capable of now. And I get the complaint about Otto, scrolling around in a spider suit, (personally I wish he kept the Superior Octopus suit) but he's not doing it to prove he's the better than Peter now, at least that's not what he's shown so far. So far he's way more humble now.

See, that's the rub with me in that I see this Otto as distinct from the one who admitted Peter was better then him and gave him his body back since he's gone through different experiences and had a a different viewpoint on things because he didn't go through Goblin Nation or the other stuff that humbled SpOck.

He still calls himself the Superior Spider-Man and believes he's better and smarter then everyone else. That's never changed and was on full-display during Spidergeddon.

Also him and Peter patching things up, isn't too far fetched, Peter's been in his head he knows Otto has a capacity for good. Also let's not forget Peter took a bullet for Norman a guy who's arguably way worse than Otto and has screwed with him way worse. let's not forget he also made a deal with Venom back in the 90s to stay out of each other's way even though he's a murderer himself.

I mean, I get that Peter knows that Otto has the capability of good but he's also seen plenty of the evil and harm Otto can cause, and that Otto did in Peter's own body while mucking up what Spider-Man means, his reputation, and his relationships. If anything instead of them "being straight" with each other it should be a very complex and volatile relationship and I don't think Peter should approve of Otto wearing a Spider-Man costume again because of what that represents.

It's not like Peter took that bullet for Norman and then let him go on his merry way.

I think the Otto thing is rife for something like what they did with Venom in the Clone Saga where a character brings up how bad an idea it was for Peter to have made a deal with Venom .

Otto's fight against Terrax recently is the biggest evidence he's changed. He was willing to die to stop terrax, and he likely would have if Anna didn't help. But he was able to beat him and save a ton of lives, and I don't think Peter is one to object, so what if Otto's wearing a spider suit, what's most important is that he's saving lives instead of killing.

I'm not surprised. They need to justify him as a hero and main protagonist in his own ongoing book.

[Decoy]

Styx and Stone: further mutated......still at large I think

Puma: haven’t seen him in a while

Tarantula: the same

Jackal: another Clone happy lunatic.....though he’s obsessed with Gwen Stacy, not Spider-Man, at least as badly as Sinister is with the Summers/ Grey bloodline.....

Morlun: I think he’s no longer a threat

Hobgoblin: more interested in farming out Supervillan Tech/ Gimmicks than trying to kill Spider-Man

Trapster: hasn’t really been a Spider-Man enemy, more of a Human Torch foe

Tinkerer: more behind the scenes

Alastair Smythe: hasn’t appeared in a bit

Chance: hasn’t shown since the 90’s

Boomerang: seems to be more of a supporting cast member now

Professor Power: was last scene in Secret Empire, but wasn’t in charge.....not a full time Spider-Man foe, tends to Alternate between Captain America and the X Teams, depending on what the writer

[Revolutionary_Jack]

To be honest, I hate the prospect of Otto going back to being a villain. They've done way more with Otto's character these past few years, then they have his entire existence IMO.

If you consider Dr. Octopus' best stories -- ASM#3, the Master Planner Saga, the Sinister Six, the Death of George Stacy, the Owl/Octopus War, and a few others here and there -- all of them feature him as a villain, and a fairly dark, dangerous, and deadly one at that. In The Owl/Octopus War he attacks a hospital and at one point attempts to drop a lift by cutting off the cables even after Spider-Man told them there were people inside. He also wanted to blow up a neutron bomb in New York.

That's who the character was for his first 30 years or so, until Tom Defalco's stories in the 90s added in his backstory. Dr. Octopus wasn't intended to be, wasn't seen as sympathetic for the entire classic period of Spider-Man. And even then, between Defalco's run and Slott's, Dr. Octopus was back to being a gangster thug during JMS and Jenkins' run.

I just don't see what benefit there is of Otto going back and reverting.

Spider-Man gets his classic rogue back. And gets to punk and beat him up and humiliate him and score an unambiguous triumph over. Dr. Octopus is an uncomplicated villain that works best as an external threat to Spider-Man, someone who Peter can beat up and look like a boss doing so. That was the logic of those stories.

Especially since Marvel's put way more effort into Otto's redemption than they have other villains, 6 years and counting.

Because Dan Slott stayed on the title so long, and Chris Gage wanted to do a series with Superior, and Spencer didn't have plans to bring back classic Ock yet.

Is it too optimistic for him to end up like Venom? He was originally intended to just be a villain but he's changed and outgrew that role, And is independent of Spider-Man. Yet people outside of comics, consider him to mainly be another spider villain, based mostly from other medias such as the cartoons and games.

In the case of Venom, it's not that hard to divorce him from Spider-Man. For one thing the classic black Symbiote outfit while well known is still not as famous as Spider-Man's red-and-blue. The name Venom is also something that stands apart from Spider-Man. In the case of Ock, his title is "Superior Spider-Man", so he's a legacy of Spider-Man's, his outfit is also similar to Spider-Man's red-and-blue.

The other thing about Venom was that he was a huge merchandise success from the beginning, and he was a genuine across the board hit. Dr. Octopus as Superior Spider-Man isn't anywhere near that. Look at the Spider-Man PS4 game and you have a psychopathic Dr. Octopus who unleashes a bio-weapon on New York, look at ITSV, where you have another gangster-thug scientist, albeit this time looking like a hippie lady.

The version of Octopus that works best is the villain. His best stories have him as a villain. His status as villain makes more sense in Spider-Man's corner than in the situation you have now.

[GSman]

For me it's just that a lot of his development into an "anti-hero" just does not feel genuine to me.

Like, I get people love a good, snobby, pretentious anti-hero who basically applies Supervillain logic to being a Superhero...but to me that makes it come off that he's still basically Doc Ock, masquerading as a hero in a Spider-man costume to fulfill his own ego and prove he's better then Spider-Man. It means he basically "won" because he got to get away with the bodyjump thanks to his backup and never got any real comeuppance for anything he did to Peter, at least as far as this version of Otto is concerned.

And he and Peter are "straight" and there's no ill will to Otto being a Spider-Man and doing his own thing, which I just find extremely unbelievable after what Peter went through and what Otto did in his body.

Slott took a lot of effort to "redeem" Otto but went too far in my opinion.

Fridging? You mean Anna Maria?

I don't think you'd need to go that far. Have Otto fail, hurt his ego, and he'll probably return to form sooner then later.

It's all still Otto though. The Otto we have now would have done the same thing that the Otto in the original run, would have since he's still the same guy just not with those memories. And yeah he's still an arrogant *******, that's something Anna is beating him over the head with in his series trying to make him change his outlook. It's working, slowly, but surely. And even in Spider Geddon he swallowed his pride, and put his differences with Miles aside and actually worked with him as partners. And was the one to come up with the solution of stopping the Inheritors once and for all, despite protesting to kill them.
He even showed remorse when sacrificing Ben to the Inheritors.

And yes, Peter's seen the worst of Otto, but should he still hold on to the past? He and Eddie were able to overcome their differences and he willingly made a deal with him before, should he not offer Otto the same privilege? Especially when he's saving lives, and not crossing lines Venom does? I'd be hypocritical for him to be ok with Venom but not Otto.