The current status of the Spider-Man rogues gallery

[Frontier]

Meanwhile, Superior has already been adapted as a potential redemption arc for Ock in this year's Spider-Man cartoon.

Some people and their certainty.

I mean, I'm already expecting to have a hard time buying that redemption arc with how they've handled Ock's character on that show and how the Superior turn happened. From how it's been presented so far it doesn't really seem like a redemption story.

They've also already confirmed Ock really screws up Peter's life while in his body.

[Tendrin]

I mean, I'm already expecting to have a hard time buying that redemption arc with how they've handled Ock's character on that show and how the Superior turn happened. From how it's been presented so far it doesn't really seem like a redemption story.

They've also already confirmed Ock really screws up Peter's life while in his body.

Well, that's what happens in the comics too, but I read an interview a while back that nodded towards a degree of it for Otto. I expect that we'll see a similar ending to the comics in essence.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I think there's a high chance Superior Spider-Man is something that actually lasts, especially since I can totally see Superior Spider-Man being used in a sequel to Insomniac's game,

Unlike a comic book, a video game or a movie has to distill stuff to essence since it costs way more money to make those than a single monthly comic. Superior Spider-Man isn't a "first Dr. Octopus/Spider-man story". It needs several adventures to establish both characters and world. In a video-game, you could make Superior Spider-Man at best into an extended DLC campaign since if you put it in the main game it would require you to play extensively as Ock-in-Spider-Man for a huge chunk of the game's time. Marketers and promoters would not be keen on doing that, and would not be impressed by how much comics Superior sold since it's so meaningless and trite when you compare how small the comics' market overall is.

Furthermore, the logic of Superior Spider-Man is about Ock becoming Spider-Man's legacy character, but as everyone knows Spider-Man's real legacy character is Miles Morales. When Superior Spider-Man first set out, it was Pre-Secret Wars'15 when Miles was imported to 616, but since the Ps4 game has Miles already, there's not much you can get. If you want an anti-villain you can bring in Venom, who is set up and foreshadowed in the PS4 game. Superior Spider-Man is way too similar to other characters and concepts as it is. I mean if you want to do a story of a villain killing Spider-Man, claiming his identity and attaining a measure of redemption, do Kraven's Last Hunt, a movie that the Russo Brothers have expressed interest doing. And if you want to do a story about a villain taking Peter's identity and shape-shifting you have Chameleon. That's one of the biggest problems with Superior as a story, it basically has Ock hijack concepts from other Spider-Man villains, and repeat themes and ideas from stories done before and done better with more appropriate stories. Superior Spider-Man to quote from Snoop Dogg, is a story that you could replace Ock with any villain. I mean even the concept of someone hacking Peter's brain was an idea that Tom Defalco explored in Spider-Girl where the undead Norman wants to do it with the aged Peter, and Defalco pointed that out when Superior was first announced.

Superior is not really a story about Dr. Octopus. The Master Planner and Owl/Octopus War deal with Ock's fascination with nuclear weapons and blowing stuff up and had him in underground bases and being an ugly gangster, as is the many Sinister Six stories. If you want to adapt the essential Dr. Octopus you go with that.

[Agent Z]

Sabretooth...

Sabretooth being on X-Men team wasn't well received from what I saw.

[Zeitgeist]

The same applies to Wolverine but at the end of the day both Punisher and Wolverine are morally above scum like Otto and preferable to him.

From your viewpoint, sure. But what about from the viewpoint of a character like Captain America, who has traditionally seen the Punisher as the antithesis of a hero?

Only if we make "anti-hero" a word without any meaning whatsover. You don't equate a vigilante who takes the law into their own hands with a terrorist or a gangster.

Again, funneling through your very specific lens, because there are people who definitely do. Last year or so there was a very real life debate about whether it's right to sock an actual modern day nazi in the jaw. Hell, there was a petition with 350,000+ signatures to classify Antifa as terrorists, and in fact the DHS and FBI apparently classify them internally as a domestic terrorist group, when some would consider them a justified vigilante group. Morality in reality has a lot more grey in between "right" and "wrong" because we all have our basepoints and positions on what's justified and what isn't.

[boots]

Again, funneling through your very specific lens, because there are people who definitely do. Last year or so there was a very real life debate about whether it's right to sock an actual modern day nazi in the jaw. Hell, there was a petition with 350,000+ signatures to classify Antifa as terrorists, and in fact the DHS and FBI apparently classify them internally as a domestic terrorist group, when some would consider them a justified vigilante group. Morality in reality has a lot more grey in between "right" and "wrong" because we all have our basepoints and positions on what's justified and what isn't.

superheroes live in the handwaviumeatcakeandhaveit reality

almost every antihero, reformed villain and probably majority of heroes (i'm looking at you mr hal mass-murderer-while-under-the-influence jordan) should be in jail in any sane universe

but we forgive it and ignore it because superheroes are just a bit of daft fun.

[Zeitgeist]

but we forgive it and ignore it because superheroes are just a bit of daft fun.

Until it becomes the meat of the next Civil War crossover

(Iron Man was right)

[Agent Z]

I am of the opinion that Spider-Man 2 isn't an entirely satisfying film.

An opinion you’re an entitled to have but not one that is shared by the majority. Nor does it prove a sympathetic Doc Ock doesn’t work given that iteration of the character is still respected to this day.

I always felt that Spider-Man 1 was the better overall film. Having Dr. Octopus be a meat puppet to his AI tentacles is pretty damn lame, removes all elements of tragedy and personal responsibility from the story. In the case of SM-1, even if Norman had more human traits there, he's still a neglectful father, has a lot of suppressed rage issues, and willingly chose to experiment a drug on himself.

Otto in SM-2 still experimented on himself and ignored safety precautions so he isn’t as lacking in agency as you think.

And SM-2 and its finale is the start of Sam Raimi's weird attitude that Spider-Man is some Jesus guy who forgives villains, leading to SM-3 where Peter lets Sandman go.

I wasn’t aware that forgiveness was a trait unique only to Jesus.
Also, Peter didn’t forgive Venom and he only forgave villains who were genuinely remorseful. Sandman isn’t the first villain Peter allowed to get away because he felt bad for them.

[Tendrin]

I find it kind of interesting that the argument in the comics mirrors the arguments that the fans have about change and stasis in the comics about Otto's nature. "You're Doctor Octopus! THat's all you'll ever be!" It's almost as if this is sort of the point. Otto could change, but maybe no one will let him.


Also kind of ironic: talking about the AI in Spider-Man 2 taking away Otto's agency while overlooking that his original origin involved him receiving significant brain damage that made him evil.

[Michael Watkins]

Sabretooth being on X-Men team wasn't well received from what I saw.

he was an Avenger, too.

[Snoop Dogg]

Sabretooth being on X-Men team wasn't well received from what I saw.

Bunncanny was the best ongoing X-Book of the last four years.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

From your viewpoint, sure. But what about from the viewpoint of a character like Captain America, who has traditionally seen the Punisher as the antithesis of a hero?

Captain America would never equate the Punisher with the likes of Red Skull or the Masters of Evil or any of his regular villains. He would see him as an extremist certainly and would feel he gives heroes a bad name but he wouldn't equate the Punisher with an actual villain.

To take a real life example, John Brown is certainly a criminal, an outlaw, and a murderer. He'd tell you that himself unashamedly but you don't equate him with assholes like Billy the Kid and Jesse James who just stole for themselves and in the case of James was a former Confederate bushwacker who participated in the Centralia massacre where he killed more than a 100 Union soldiers alongside Bill Anderson.

Again, funneling through your very specific lens, because there are people who definitely do. Last year or so there was a very real life debate about whether it's right to sock an actual modern day nazi in the jaw.

A debate that when made by sane people at least, didn't equate the hypothetical Nazi jaw-sockers with the likes of Bin Laden, Timothy McVeigh and Jim Jones.

Morality in reality has a lot more grey in between "right" and "wrong" because we all have our basepoints and positions on what's justified and what isn't.

Well in the case of The Punisher and Dr. Octopus, Frank Castle is morally a saint next to Otto.

Also kind of ironic: talking about the AI in Spider-Man 2 taking away Otto's agency while overlooking that his original origin involved him receiving significant brain damage that made him evil.

In the original Ditko story, we don't get any sense of who Dr. Octopus was before the accident so we have nothing to compare/contrast with. All that we get is that Otto had an accident, his arms fused with his body and he now has total bio-organic control over those limbs. And in any case, Dr. Octopus was always shown as a sane criminal. As were most of Ditko's rogues, even Norman Osborn in Ditko's run was shown as a sane operator and manipulator. The idea that Otto had split personality was Stan Lee's concept, because Ditko certainly didn't truck with insane villains.

[Tendrin]

In the original Ditko story, we don't get any sense of who Dr. Octopus was before the accident so we have nothing to compare/contrast with. All that we get is that Otto had an accident, his arms fused with his body and he now has total bio-organic control over those limbs. And in any case, Dr. Octopus was always shown as a sane criminal. As were most of Ditko's rogues, even Norman Osborn in Ditko's run was shown as a sane operator and manipulator. The idea that Otto had split personality was Stan Lee's concept, because Ditko certainly didn't truck with insane villains.

There is textual evidence and writing for sympathetic Otto with this dating back to the 80s. This really comes as off as a bit of you trying to have it both ways. And the brain damage and text about it was straight up from his first appearance.

[Frontier]

Well, that's what happens in the comics too, but I read an interview a while back that nodded towards a degree of it for Otto. I expect that we'll see a similar ending to the comics in essence.

Well, they've mentioned a "sacrifice" at the end of the season and I've been guessing it's probably Otto sacrificing himself (potentially more permanently then in the comics).

[boots]

Captain America would never equate the Punisher with the likes of Red Skull or the Masters of Evil or any of his regular villains. He would see him as an extremist certainly and would feel he gives heroes a bad name but he wouldn't equate the Punisher with an actual villain.

cap's a funny one. the guy went to war and his allies were certainly killing other men with guns (i'm not sure how that's been addressed), but his current depiction doesn't strike me as the type of hero that distinguishes between murdering "good people" and "bad people". apparently marvel clocked frank's bodycount at 48, 502 which definitely gives some supervillains a run for their money.

steve did call frank a "murderous piece of trash" as he beat the crap out of him. when frank explained he only killed baddies, cap kicked him in the teeth.