The current status of the Spider-Man rogues gallery

[Snoop Dogg]

Steve thinks Frank is garbo trash, which is why Stevil giving Frank some actual approval because they both share the "peace through strength even if you do awful ****" philosophy is one of the reasons Frank joined Hydra.

Now, some people like Ed Brubaker seem to not really understand this because he read like three issues of Steranko Cap back in the day where Hydra dudes are getting blown up, but Steve (and most superheroes) understand the difference between his allies killing in an actual wartime scenario and killing gratuitously because you think you're the law. It's not even smart to show Steve himself being brutal during war because he's supposed to be super skilled and he uses a defensive weapon.

So the Punisher killing people in Civil War, the story where the sides are very much trying not to kill each other, is very villanous behavior. The Punisher is not an anti-hero who is willing to kill or seeks to kill perceived threats like he is in the Netflix show, he kills gratuitously, and that is all he does because he is a villain. Just because he happens to target criminals does not change that, it just makes it so he is useful during crisis situations, like Thanos in the 90's. Steve is not going to give Frank leeway just because they're both soldiers and view him as more moral than goofballs like the Serpent Society. He'd view him on the same level as Zemo, where maybe he can be redeemed, but he's still a problem.

He cannot be compared to current Otto, who is not even an anti-hero with a capacity for cruelty anymore. He's developed into a standard superhero with a surly and arrogant attitude.

[Zeitgeist]

^^^^^

cap's a funny one. the guy went to war and his allies were certainly killing other men with guns (i'm not sure how that's been addressed), but his current depiction doesn't strike me as the type of hero that distinguishes between murdering "good people" and "bad people". apparently marvel clocked frank's bodycount at 48, 502 which definitely gives some supervillains a run for their money.

steve did call frank a "murderous piece of trash" as he beat the crap out of him. when frank explained he only killed baddies, cap kicked him in the teeth.

^^^^^

A debate that when made by sane people at least, didn't equate the hypothetical Nazi jaw-sockers with the likes of Bin Laden, Timothy McVeigh and Jim Jones.

You had used generalised labels though ("vigilante", "terrorist") rather than specific worst-case extremes. If we're naming the worst-of-the-worst then everything is going to invariably pale in comparison. I think my point outside the realm of those extremes still stands.

[ngroove]

How about Rhino? What's his current status? Flip-Flopping from foe to friend, to foe to back to friend, as seen in recent team-ups with Spider-Man and Spider-Man (Miles Morales), even shook hands with Captain America.

[Snoop Dogg]

Aleksei's job is being sad and being bossed around by jerks. And that's when writers remember he's supposed to be Russian!

[Tendrin]

He cannot be compared to current Otto, who is not even an anti-hero with a capacity for cruelty anymore. He's developed into a standard superhero with a surly and arrogant attitude.

I think it's too early to say that he's a 'standard' super-hero. He's being held back from engaging in his worst instincts, but had he been left to his own devices, a lot more civilians would have died in the fight against Master Pandaemonium.

He sure is a hilariously ginormous douche, though.

[theoneandonly]

the civil war storyline is one of the most moronic ooc storyline so I never pay much attention to how shitty characters behaved in it. though Captain America showed himself to be a particular hypocrite who will take in punisher when it suits him but kick him out the moment he crossed the line in his eyes.

[Agent Z]

Steve thinks Frank is garbo trash, which is why Stevil giving Frank some actual approval because they both share the "peace through strength even if you do awful ****" philosophy is one of the reasons Frank joined Hydra.

Now, some people like Ed Brubaker seem to not really understand this because he read like three issues of Steranko Cap back in the day where Hydra dudes are getting blown up, but Steve (and most superheroes) understand the difference between his allies killing in an actual wartime scenario and killing gratuitously because you think you're the law. It's not even smart to show Steve himself being brutal during war because he's supposed to be super skilled and he uses a defensive weapon.

So the Punisher killing people in Civil War, the story where the sides are very much trying not to kill each other, is very villanous behavior. The Punisher is not an anti-hero who is willing to kill or seeks to kill perceived threats like he is in the Netflix show, he kills gratuitously, and that is all he does because he is a villain. Just because he happens to target criminals does not change that, it just makes it so he is useful during crisis situations, like Thanos in the 90's. Steve is not going to give Frank leeway just because they're both soldiers and view him as more moral than goofballs like the Serpent Society. He'd view him on the same level as Zemo, where maybe he can be redeemed, but he's still a problem.

He cannot be compared to current Otto, who is not even an anti-hero with a capacity for cruelty anymore. He's developed into a standard superhero with a surly and arrogant attitude.

There are situations in which killing can be justified besides war time. Brubaker never had Steve kill unless it was absolutely necessary or indirectly (the guys he killed in the first issue were terrorists).

Also, Steve doesn't use his shield only as a defensive weapon. His theme song even lampshades it.

When Captain America throws his mighty shield,

All those who chose to oppose his shield must yield.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

cap's a funny one. the guy went to war and his allies were certainly killing other men with guns (i'm not sure how that's been addressed), but his current depiction doesn't strike me as the type of hero that distinguishes between murdering "good people" and "bad people". apparently marvel clocked frank's bodycount at 48, 502 which definitely gives some supervillains a run for their money.

steve did call frank a "murderous piece of trash" as he beat the crap out of him. when frank explained he only killed baddies, cap kicked him in the teeth.

Doesn't explain that Steve would equate Frank with actual villains.

And I find this whole attempt to sort out Otto and Frank hypocritical since Otto in his time as Superior actually did murder villains. He was basically the Punisher in a Spider-Suit, as was Kraven.

[Silver Fang]

Bunncanny was the best ongoing X-Book of the last four years.

Speak the truth! I haven't enjoyed a team book since then. Bunn had TWO of my favorites on a team, was doing great with them both. And both have done nothing good or of note since Bunn. lol

[Frontier]

Steve thinks Frank is garbo trash, which is why Stevil giving Frank some actual approval because they both share the "peace through strength even if you do awful ****" philosophy is one of the reasons Frank joined Hydra.

You'd think that would've been Frank's first clue something was off .

There are situations in which killing can be justified besides war time. Brubaker never had Steve kill unless it was absolutely necessary or indirectly (the guys he killed in the first issue were terrorists).

And even Sharon brought up how excessive that was for him, and that he was "off."

[Michael Watkins]

You'd think that would've been Frank's first clue something was off .

fascists tend to be pretty gullible

[Snoop Dogg]

There are situations in which killing can be justified besides war time. Brubaker never had Steve kill unless it was absolutely necessary or indirectly (the guys he killed in the first issue were terrorists).

That is the scene. That is the godawful scene. Imagine if Spider-Man was salty that he lost his job, so he let some bank robbers fall to their deaths.

[Agent Z]

That is the scene. That is the godawful scene. Imagine if Spider-Man was salty that he lost his job, so he let some bank robbers fall to their deaths.

It really wasn't that simple in Steve's case.

[Frontier]

It really wasn't that simple in Steve's case.

I think the way it was depicted he was deliberately meant to come off as more callous then he usually is. At least that's what I remember Sharon getting on his case for.

[boots]

Doesn't explain that Steve would equate Frank with actual villains.

true enough, though i'd say murdering almost 50,000 individuals would put frank in the running.

the fact that cap has not come after him like he would any supervillain, says to us in-universe that steve at the very least tolerates the punisher being at large. irl it could be argued that marvel just wants to keep all the toys in play so it's easier not to address. which tends to be how the superhero universes work.

And I find this whole attempt to sort out Otto and Frank hypocritical since Otto in his time as Superior actually did murder villains. He was basically the Punisher in a Spider-Suit, as was Kraven.

i'm not sure what's hyprocritical about it, but i can't speak for the other guys commenting. my only exposure to SpOck was in spider-verse, but on the whole, i have nothing against marvel experimenting with a 60 year old character. it's clear there's been at least some success there.