MCU Scarlet Witch vs MCU Ebony Maw

[Sub-Zero MKA]

There are shields all through fiction that block telekinesis, based on the idea that, yes, it's an actual force one needs to send out to manipulate stuff. Invisible Woman cut off Jean Grey from using her TK on people this way, as an example. And on Rumbles, we don't worry about Darth Vader crushing Classic Strange's windpipe, even though we've never seen Strange's autoshields defend against Force TK.

I feel that just saying one can reach through shields that are shown to stop energy and physical stuff both simply because one is using TK is a bit of a slippery slope, and not really proper for Rumbles. I would, personally, RATHER see the TK demonstrated to have the ability to ignore shields, and work from there.

Mileage may vary, mind.

Hm, point well taken.

[Sharpandpointies]

Vader choked a dude on another star destroyer that presumably had shields.

A fair point.

So, which is it, then? Do we give people the automatic ability to bypass shields with TK, unless on a case by case basis the shields have been shown to protect against TK? Or do we force the TK user to prove that they can bypass shields, again on a case by case basis?

Frankly, I'm all for trying to work things out on a case by case basis, as that is kind of the point of Rumbles, but which one is the starting point?

[Sharpandpointies]

Hm, point well taken.

Arbiter does raise a fair point about Vader's stuff. Of course, we then need to look at Star Wars starship shields. They're not...impermeable. Stuff gets through them. Snub-fighters, for example, fly right through SD shields to attack the SD itself (check out Return of the Jedi, where snub fighters actually attack shield generators on Vader's ship, which...bizarrely, then leaves it vulnerable to a ramming attack to the bridge. If someone could fly through the shields and shoot all crap out of the generator, why would the shields have made any difference on a ramming attack? Etc).

[The Arbiter]

I wasn't making a grand point. Just musing on the topic.

For my money, TK should NOT be assumed to bypass shields unless shown otherwise.

The exception being if the shield is quite literally in the shape of a shield. Like if it only defends a portion of you instead of being a skin tight or omnidirectional sort of deal.

Auto Shields and skin tight shielding often is portrayed as just keeping out "bad stuff". Like, light can pass right through, because they can see, but photon based /attacks/ get blocked and a million other examples like sonic weapons etc

[big_adventure]

Even more, in Star Wars and (especially) Star Trek universes, shields don't provide anything like 100% protection. Shields can still be up, and ships take actual physical damage all the time. Don't try to explain it - you'll just go insane. Or more insane if you are Cthulu.

[BitVyper]

A fair point.

So, which is it, then? Do we give people the automatic ability to bypass shields with TK, unless on a case by case basis the shields have been shown to protect against TK? Or do we force the TK user to prove that they can bypass shields, again on a case by case basis?

Frankly, I'm all for trying to work things out on a case by case basis, as that is kind of the point of Rumbles, but which one is the starting point?

I'd say it comes down to feats. In the absence of feats on either side, I'd say if the TK is presented as just being able to grab things, that a shield with no anti-TK feats probably can't stop it. Really depends on the presentation though; if the TK-user's TK is coming off as just sort of blunt shoving, I'd be partial to saying a shield matters; if they seem to need line of sight, then probably they can't get beneath full body armour. If there's a lot of fine manipulation like with Ebony Maw, then I don't think that "blocking" is really going to do anything without at least feats for stopping totally nonphysical things.

[regnak]

A fair point.

So, which is it, then? Do we give people the automatic ability to bypass shields with TK, unless on a case by case basis the shields have been shown to protect against TK? Or do we force the TK user to prove that they can bypass shields, again on a case by case basis?

Frankly, I'm all for trying to work things out on a case by case basis, as that is kind of the point of Rumbles, but which one is the starting point?

Do we actually know that the Star Destroyer had it’s shields up at that time?

[Sharpandpointies]

I wasn't making a grand point. Just musing on the topic.

For my money, TK should NOT be assumed to bypass shields unless shown otherwise.

The exception being if the shield is quite literally in the shape of a shield. Like if it only defends a portion of you instead of being a skin tight or omnidirectional sort of deal.

Auto Shields and skin tight shielding often is portrayed as just keeping out "bad stuff". Like, light can pass right through, because they can see, but photon based /attacks/ get blocked and a million other examples like sonic weapons etc

I'm pretty cool with this kind of thing.

Even more, in Star Wars and (especially) Star Trek universes, shields don't provide anything like 100% protection. Shields can still be up, and ships take actual physical damage all the time. Don't try to explain it - you'll just go insane. Or more insane if you are Cthulu.

It's bizarre, isn't it?

I'd say it comes down to feats. In the absence of feats on either side, I'd say if the TK is presented as just being able to grab things, that a shield with no anti-TK feats probably can't stop it

I'm with you on the feats, but in the opposite direction ; so long as shields are the kind that need to be 'broken' for energies (specifically) to get through, I'm personally fine with them working against TK energies unless said TK is shown to ignore anti-energy shields.

Otherwise we get into an area where TK bolts/impacts can also be 'flung' through shields, barring said shield having the proper feats.

[BitVyper]

Yeah, I'm talking about specifically if the TK is being presented as being able to grab things without showing any visible transmission of force between the TK-user and the target. "Bolts" would obviously not fall under that. Fine manipulation, though, requires a lot of operation that suggests they're not really having to deal with the intervening space and makes it appear as though they just manifest the effect at the target area.

[Sharpandpointies]

Yeah, I'm talking about specifically if the TK is being presented as being able to grab things without showing any visible transmission of force between the TK-user and the target. "Bolts" would obviously not fall under that. Fine manipulation, though, requires a lot of operation that suggests they're not really having to deal with the intervening space and makes it appear as though they just manifest the effect at the target area.

I get what you're saying. For me, I'd still ask for 'penetrates shields' feats. The whole idea of it manifesting the force to move objects within the shield itself means the shield still needs to be bypassed somehow, by something.

But that's me. I get why people (yourself included) would go the other route.

[BitVyper]

I get what you're saying. For me, I'd still ask for 'penetrates shields' feats. The whole idea of it manifesting the force to move objects within the shield itself means the shield still needs to be bypassed somehow, by something.

Only if the shield has feats for blocking thoughts, or at least something truly immaterial is what I'd say to that. An energy shield that stops lasers or some other kind of "blast" is still dispersing or stopping something that, by nature, can be dispersed or stopped. Another way I'd put it is that pretty much all fictional shields can be communicated through by speech or email or whatever, and that's the closest parallel I can think of to "thought" alone. I think if Picard can have shields raised and still communicate with another ship, then in absence of other feats, it should be possible for a psychic to manifest an effect that requires only thought inside of his shields.

I agree that it's a sticky area. There's not a whole lot of basis to say one thing or the other in absence of feats. For the purposes of THIS rumble though, I think that still basically makes it a quick draw? Unless Scarlet Witch has autoshields.

[Sharpandpointies]

I do like handling things on a case by case basis, rather than making blanket statements that invariably get into difficult areas when applied across the board. ^_^

And certainly there's no need for any such points here.

[Captain Morgan]

Considering Wanda basically has TK herself, I'm inclined to think she can block it. Really the only difference between their two power sets is that Wanda's generate a light show.

[Darth Drizzle]

It seems by appearances that Wandas TK is sight based only, as in if something is behind her she can't effect it.

Almost like she is more of an energy construct user than true TK user.

[k von doom]

^ Wanda's AoE affected things behind her.

I think Vader has been the only one to use TK over a TV monitor.