"Everyone knows that Peter loves Mary Jane, but Gwen was his real, true love."

[boots]

on the tangent; i don't think fictional characters (even heroes) need to be "healthy".

[bob.schoonover]

on the tangent; i don't think fictional characters (even heroes) need to be "healthy".

One would imagine the actual healthy response to everything Peter has been through would be to curl up in a ball and cry for 7 weeks non-stop. That would not be a particularly fun comic to read.

----------------------

There's something very weird about how Marvel at the editorial level treats Spider-man fans. Gwen has been brought back a few times to no big effect (original Clone Saga, House of M, Clone Conspiracy to name a few), but she is still brought up all the time as some paragon of . . . something. If editorial thought she was all that and a bag of chips, why aren't they just resurrecting her?

[WebSlingWonder]

One would imagine the actual healthy response to everything Peter has been through would be to curl up in a ball and cry for 7 weeks non-stop. That would not be a particularly fun comic to read.

----------------------

There's something very weird about how Marvel at the editorial level treats Spider-man fans. Gwen has been brought back a few times to no big effect (original Clone Saga, House of M, Clone Conspiracy to name a few), but she is still brought up all the time as some paragon of . . . something. If editorial thought she was all that and a bag of chips, why aren't they just resurrecting her?

Because everyone is just reacting to the second part of his quote: "Everyone knows that Peter loves Mary Jane, but I think Gwen was his real, true love in my opinion." In other words, he's not stating he's against Mary Jane being Peter's primary love interest, he just says that the death of Gwen tore him apart (which makes sense since he saw the original pages - I mean that'd get to anyone). So no, he's not treating Spider-Man fans badly, this was just an interview taken out of context because people want to see what they want to see!

[Tuck]

a writer gives his opinion based on the powerful effect of some artwork on him. end of story

We need a Change.org petition to demand he retract his statement.




Has a Change.org petition ever accomplished anything?

[WebSlingWonder]

We need a Change.org petition to demand he retract his statement.




Has a Change.org petition ever accomplished anything?

No. No it hasn't.

[boots]

No. No it hasn't.

then its an excellent option for this discussion

[Kevinroc]

on the tangent; i don't think fictional characters (even heroes) need to be "healthy".

Maybe now is a bad time to express this idea in the wake of DC's Heroes in Crisis. (I would post a string of expletives over the ideas that mini expressed about mental health care.)

[boots]

Maybe now is a bad time to express this idea in the wake of DC's Heroes in Crisis. (I would post a string of expletives over the ideas that mini expressed about mental health care.)

sure, i’ll likely never read it

[Starrius]

Cebulski was stating his belief.
That's ok with me, and I am Peter/Mary Jane fan.

Stan Lee did create Gwen to be Peter's future wife.
He created Mary Jane just for fun, but she ended up being a lot more popular than Gwen.
No matter what he did, he couldn't make her popular as Mary Jane



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUqRdAZED9Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xtzfzDkWzs

[Revolutionary_Jack]

on the tangent; i don't think fictional characters (even heroes) need to be "healthy".

If it fits the character. In the case of Batman or Iron Man, them having messy relationships and other woes fits their story well. But in the case of Peter, he's a normal rational guy who has powers. Psychologically, Peter's a little passive and meek, and tends to allow girls wear the pants in the relationship which is probably one reason so many of them find him attractive to be around, whereas Batman is a total macho pig, however much he denies it.

So Peter's relationship woes have to come from a healthy place. The truth is that even relationships which are healthy and fine and proper, run into issues. Like Peter's relationship with Felicia was healthy from his point of view, and there was an element of "I can change her" there until he broke off when he realized that wasn't gonna happen.

One reason why the Peter/Gwen relationship never felt believable to me is that they don't feel like a real couple. They don't have any fights or differences in opinions. We never saw them on dates in the Lee/Romita era. The version of Peter that Gwen knew was a faker. He lied to her continuously. The one time he tried to come clean in ASM#87, he on seeing her hysterical reaction decides to gaslight her with an assist from the Prowler. That relationship isn't actually healthy on either side. The longer Peter stayed with her, the more he came off as a jerk, and Gwen's "ideal" nature meant that we as a reader and viewer were expected to forgive everything she did even if it was awful or bizarre.

[Kevinroc]

sure, i’ll likely never read it

There's always that balance between wanting these characters to serve as inspirational figures while also focusing on their flaws, you know?

I'm not really feeling it right now where the EiC basically says "Peter really loved his dead girlfriend, and he hasn't really moved on". That's not a healthy message to send. And in the wake of the horrible Heroes in Crisis, I think this industry could use a little bit of healthy messages right now.

(But some people would rather argue their ships. Say things like "see, he doesn't really love MJ!")

[boots]

If it fits the character. In the case of Batman or Iron Man, them having messy relationships and other woes fits their story well. But in the case of Peter, he's a normal rational guy who has powers.

"normal" (whatever that is) and rational people act outside of their self interest all the time. average people have issues, and get therapy and support. nothing wrong with that. there's probably a gulf between unhealthy behaviour and toxic behaviour that hasn't been defined here yet

[boots]

*I interpreted what the EiC basically said as "Peter really loved his dead girlfriend, and he hasn't really moved on". I believe that's not a healthy message.

there we go

[Zeitgeist]

I think Peter keeping such a huge secret, prioritizing such a huge secret (which he did. He even thought about how he could protect his secret from Gwen after rescuing her from the bridge), kind of undercuts this idea of "real, true love". Peter was lying to her every day of their relationship. Peter was planning on being married to her without ever telling her he was Spider-Man. If you're going to make the argument that Gwen was his "real, true love", you have to acknowledge this is messed up.

But he was coming at it from the angle of protecting her. You can say from a far removed viewpoint from the outside as a reader "oh, that's not a great representation of trust", but it's very much an in-character thing Peter would do as he believes in his heart it's for the best for the one he loves. I mean, that's basically his relationship with Aunt May and many other close supporting characters. I don't think that undercuts the relationships he has with any of them, and definitely not the strength of his bond with Gwen.

The notion that Peter is incapable of moving on from dead Gwen nor have fulfilling and greater relationships as an adult because he should be stuck obsessing over that tragic relationship for his entire life, that he can never truly move forward to have mature, satisfying relationships makes Peter look like a lame, unheroic, irresponsible manchild.

Calling someone with a potential inability to overcome a traumatic experience an "irresponsible manchild" is maybe the hottest take of the thread so far

[boots]

Calling someone with a potential inability to overcome a traumatic experience an "irresponsible manchild" is maybe the hottest take of the thread so far

people move forward from the loves of their lives all the time, they find new relationships are deep and meaningful, that doesn't mean that prior person is knocked off the pedestal.

especially when that previous relationship will always live on idealised, untouched and unresolved. that's not manchilding; thats just peeps.