The Death of Vertigo... Will DC itself follow suit?

[DragonsChi]

First, I'm not "Essentially..." saying anything. I'm saying it outright.

DC decided that it wanted a larger ownership stake of titles even if it meant eventually having far less of those titles. Pretty common knowledge.

And you believe that decision had nothing to do with sales and lack there of?

[numberthirty]

And you believe that decision had nothing to do with sales and lack there of?

Don't believe. I know.

It has been DC's policy since the imprint started. That means that sales(or a lack of sales) are a non-issue.

[DragonsChi]

Don't believe. I know.

It has been DC's policy since the imprint started. That means that sales(or a lack of sales) are a non-issue.

Do you understand the purpose of a business? Real question.

Ask yourself if you were making money from two different sources with about the same amount of effort would you cut off one your revenue streams if was still profitable ? Most normal people would say no. Because there would be no reason too. Most good business people would use that opportunity to expand further if they where profitable.

Now why would a major money hungry cooperation with 100's of people profiting and depending on a single entity make a decision like that if it had nothing to do with money? Serious think about your answer before you respond.

Because right now you are basically saying DC comics is just a Jerk who is laying off all of vertigo's staff when they were doing well. Not only that you are saying they would rather see someone else make the money they could be making because they essentially don't want or like more money.

[numberthirty]

Do you understand the purpose of a business? Real question.

Ask yourself if you were making money from two different sources with about the same amount of effort would you cut off one your revenue streams if was still profitable ? Most normal people would say no. Because there would be no reason too. Most good business people would use that opportunity to expand further if they where profitable.

Now why would a major money hungry cooperation with 100's of people profiting and depending on a single entity make a decision like that if it had nothing to do with money? Serious think about your answer before you respond.

Because right now you are basically saying DC comics is just a Jerk who is laying off all of vertigo's staff when they were doing well. Not only that you are saying they would rather see someone else make the money they could be making because they essentially don't want or like more money.

Actually, you are the only person who has been saying this.

Meanwhile, the reality is that sales are not(and never have been) the issue.

The issue is pretty simple. They want to continue to do business in a certain way. Even in a bigger picture where it will most likely wind up making them less money. Not that the company does not like or want money.

It's that they want to make(or not make) that money on their own terms.

[jetengine]

Dragonschi, your problem is your assuming DC knowingly and willingly turned down what is now Image work because they knew it would hurt them, yet did it anyway. What your forgetting to take into account is human stupidity and greed.

I wouldnt be surprised if its literally doen to a single person stubbornly going "We own everything or nothing, we're one of the biggest companies out there, theyll come back"

[numberthirty]

Dragonschi, your problem is your assuming DC knowingly and willingly turned down what is now Image work because they knew it would hurt them, yet did it anyway. What your forgetting to take into account is human stupidity and greed.

I wouldnt be surprised if its literally doen to a single person stubbornly going "We own everything or nothing, we're one of the biggest companies out there, theyll come back"

For starters.

There are some other pretty obvious issues where the idea that DC is the driving force in the scenario just doesn't work. That said, it's a whole other part of discussing the bigger picture.

[DragonsChi]

Void of reality. Vertigo has been a imprint for DC comics for 25 years now. And as of this last month only then they decide to close it down. Not because of money. But because people have clearly been throwing money at us for these titles. but we are going to pass up on that. No we want reduce our entire line because we want to keep it simple. No need for all that money on the table.

Bare Necessities ya’ll. #junglebookforlife

[Dark-Flux]

Void of reality. Vertigo has been a imprint for DC comics for 25 years now. And as of this last month only then they decide to close it down. Not because of money. But because people have clearly been throwing money at us for these titles. but we are going to pass up on that. No we want reduce our entire line because we want to keep it simple. No need for all that money on the table.

Bare Necessities ya’ll. #junglebookforlife

Theres also the fact that there has been a whole bunch of restructuring lately and DC could be attempting to shift there resources to maximize focus on a more conservative range of products, rather than be spread thin over numerous imprints. Not saying sales arnt an issue, but its more about how they are looking to push into the young readers market with the likes of Ink, Zoom and Wonder comics, and want to focus more of their own IPs since they now struggle to compete with what other creator-owned publishers can offer. Vertigo, as it was, doesnt really align with that.

I do think that in the long run however, they could be shooting themselves in the foot. If DC are looking to more greatly push into the bookstore market then that is arguably where Vertigo projects could pay off in the long run. But i'd wager that was their intent behind Black Label. Which theyve since also also started to mess up due to the rescheduling in the wake of Bat-penis.

[DragonsChi]

Theres also the fact that there has been a whole bunch of restructuring lately and DC could be attempting to shift there resources to maximize focus on a more conservative range of products, rather than be spread thin over numerous imprints. Not saying sales arnt an issue, but its more about how they are looking to push into the young readers market with the likes of Ink, Zoom and Wonder comics, and want to focus more of their own IPs since they now struggle to compete with what other creator-owned publishers can offer. Vertigo, as it was, doesnt really align with that.

I do think that in the long run however, they could be shooting themselves in the foot. If DC are looking to more greatly push into the bookstore market then that is arguably where Vertigo projects could pay off in the long run. But i'd wager that was their intent behind Black Label. Which theyve since also also started to mess up due to the rescheduling in the wake of Bat-penis.

All of the things you are talking about here actually have some truth to it. They are restructuring but the reason they are getting rid of certain avenues is because they are not profitable and they do not have the people or an idea on how to make them profitable again.

Business do not cut off, downsize, or restructure parts of their business that are profitable. A company owned by AT&T/WB for sure does not leave money on the table.

All I'm saying is SALES is the primary motivation for all of this. Vertigo line closing down is a symptom of the current problem with the Superhero comic industry. Or rather it's the infected limb connected to the diseased body of the Big Two. (Even though the division itself was making its own bad decisions)

Due to how it's always been set up people went to the comic store to purchase from the Big Two while they where there they would see other title's they would have never heard of otherwise in said comic books store and on occasion pick those books up as well.( Other companies did not have the finances, resources, or backing to do their own marketing like the Big Two did/does.) When DC and Marvel start making very poor business and creative decisions it effects the entire superhero comic community. They both have been making bad decisions for about 8-9 years now. What we are seeing with shops closing down, publishers closing their doors or merging, and record low sales are signal's that disease is closing in on the heart or another vital organ.

Things do not happen in a vacuum.

[iron chimp]

If you have x thousand dollars you are willing to gamble then no company can offer the deal image offers or the potential rewards.

[Comic-Reader Lad]

I definitely think sales play a big part in the shuttering of Vertigo, but it's not the only part.

I do think that DC just wants to get out of the creator-owned business even if it does mean leaving money on the table because it's not worth it to devote the resources to something that DC does not completely own.

A sales department is only so big. A marketing department is only so big. Those resources could and should be better used to sell and promote IP that DC owns completely, not IP that DC has to share revenue with the creator. Of course, there are exceptions to this such as when a creator-owned deal is part of an overall sweetheart deal with "power talent" (as DiDio calls it) with people like Bendis.

Now, sales do play a part in that decision making process, of course. If all of the top 20 titles in the industry were consistently Vertigo creator-owned titles, then it would justify keeping Vertigo around because there would be enough money left over for DC even after the creator got his cut. But that's not the case. No Vertigo title even appears in the Top 100 comics -- not even the titles that DC owns completely like the Sandman Universe stuff.

Just as with licensed titles, sales have to be high enough to justify sharing the revenue with the IP owner, which is why DC and Marvel have given up on Tarzan, The Phantom, and Doc Savage, etc. They simply don't bring in enough profit for a big company to care. For a little company, it makes more sense because Tarzan and the others bring eyeballs to that company that the company can then hopefully use to hook readers on their own IP. DC and Marvel don't need to do that -- their own IP sells better. Now, in the days when DC and Marvel's corporate overlords weren't micromanaging the companies, DC and Marvel could get away with fanboy indulgences like doing a Star Trek or Flash Gordon comic, but now it doesn't seem to make sense for AT&T or Disney to promote Paramount's Star Trek franchise or Universal's Monsters. Why would one media giant give another a foothold in the comics store market when every inch of store real estate is better used selling a DC or Marvel related product?

However, beyond using valuable corporate resources to promote low-selling titles, companies will also leave money on the table if the IP is simply too potentially controversial for the comfort level of the corporate overlords. That's why the Omnibuses for Shazam: Monster Society of Evil and Detective 1-26 were canceled. Would they have been enormous sellers, no, but those $150 Omnis rarely are. But they do bring in enough money to justify them. However Shazam and Detective would have brought a whole lot more controversy to make it not worth the money -- even if the controversy would have caused a sales bump for those projects. The optics just aren't good for a multinational media conglomerate to be making dough off selling racist content, so yes, money will be left on the table.

Second Coming, a comic starring Jesus as a superhero is not something that I think AT&T wants to get involved with because the risk is greater than the potential reward. Now, Second Coming might become the biggest comic book ever published, but it is far more likely to offend people. Now, if you're a small company and self-owned like Image, you WANT controversy because it brings eyeballs, but for a big conglomerate, it's not enough eyeballs to justify the potential harm to the overall comics brand and the larger corporate brand. A single comic, no matter how profitable, is not worth hurting a multi-billion dollar company. The damage control would cost far more than whatever profit that comic brings in.

So, with outside owned IP (whether it be owned by a creator or another media company), DC and Marvel have to ask if the profit AND the potential controversy are worth it, and with self-owned IP, DC and Marvel still have to ask if the properties justify the expense of having their own imprint with its own staff and marketing budget.

It seems, in the current climate, that the answer to either scenario is no. Any Vertigo IP that has a potential audience like the Sandman stuff, or Fables, Y the Last Man, etc. can be brought back in to publication with new material on an as-needed basis as part of the Black Label, which seems to be more of a project-based label publishing one-shots, miniseries, and trades than an imprint designed to support multiple ongoing series.

Of course, behind the scenes, DiDio may have been championing the shuttering of Vertigo for personal reasons -- maybe as a final FU to Karen Berger. Who knows? But again, the sales weren't there, and DC is also very risk averse right now whether it be Vertigo, Black Label, or DC proper.

So, it's a combination of sales and potentially risky properties that have led to Vertigo's demise.

[superduperman]

I also think to some degree price plays a factor here. To give you an example: I thought about picking up the latest issue of JL because it featured a flashback to Superman's childhood. It is $5.00. For a 22 page comic. I can go down to my local Wal-Mart and pick up a 100 page Superman comic for that much money. Along with some comics I haven't read before. With JL I'd be paying $5.00 for maybe two pages. And jumping in the middle of a story I haven't been reading. How many others books fall under this same category? It's actually cheaper to trade wait out a book. Are these issues really going to be worth more than that $5.00 as a long term investment for collectors ten/twenty years down the line? Or are they going to end up in the dollar bin a year from now? Individual floppies in general are becoming too expensive to keep getting on a regular basis. If the major super-hero books can't keep an audience at that price, what chance does an experimental book have?

[Ilan Preskovsky]

What I really don't understand is why they don't just move the mature-readers Black Label titles over to Vertigo. This way they don't have to worry about competing with indie publishers who offer much better rates for creator-owned stuff and they can keep one of the most respected and book-store friendly brands alive AND have the titles owned entirely by themselves. Retiring a known quantity like Vertigo for Black Label - which, if it is known at all, it's only for silly, childish controversies - really doesn't make sense to me.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

I also think to some degree price plays a factor here. To give you an example: I thought about picking up the latest issue of JL because it featured a flashback to Superman's childhood. It is $5.00. For a 22 page comic. I can go down to my local Wal-Mart and pick up a 100 page Superman comic for that much money. Along with some comics I haven't read before. With JL I'd be paying $5.00 for maybe two pages. And jumping in the middle of a story I haven't been reading. How many others books fall under this same category? It's actually cheaper to trade wait out a book. Are these issues really going to be worth more than that $5.00 as a long term investment for collectors ten/twenty years down the line? Or are they going to end up in the dollar bin a year from now? Individual floppies in general are becoming too expensive to keep getting on a regular basis. If the major super-hero books can't keep an audience at that price, what chance does an experimental book have?

Ooh, yeah, $5 for a 22 comic is entirely unacceptable. And it's a price point that has seemingly been assigned to completely random books. DC has relatively recently made the full jump to $4 per comic. There's no way in hell that the market is ready for a full $1 jump this soon.

[kjn]

What I really don't understand is why they don't just move the mature-readers Black Label titles over to Vertigo. This way they don't have to worry about competing with indie publishers who offer much better rates for creator-owned stuff and they can keep one of the most respected and book-store friendly brands alive AND have the titles owned entirely by themselves. Retiring a known quantity like Vertigo for Black Label - which, if it is known at all, it's only for silly, childish controversies - really doesn't make sense to me.

I think answering that question requires more Burbankology than anyone here is capable of.

Some things to remember though:

Corporations shut down profitable departments or companies all the time, if they think they can turn a greater profit that way. Or look at how Justice League was forced to stick to its November release, possibly in order to hit bonus releases for the executives.

DC looks rather top-heavy on the executive and management side. I wouldn't be surprised at all if both Black Label, Vertigo, and the various other imprints are all pieces of various internal turf wars going on.

It is also possible that there are contracts that DC gets out of by shutting the imprint. Personally, I doubt it, at least insofar as that would possibly require a lot more deliberation than DC has evidenced so far. More likely it might bite them in the ass.

And never believe in that economists or executives are rational. They have at least as many pet projects or vested interests as anyone else here.