The Death of Vertigo... Will DC itself follow suit?

[scary harpy]

DC itself is too important a home for invaluable IPs so more obvious money spinners like films and toys based on these characters aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

They may even keep digital comics as part of their streaming service but the real worry is DC's print comics, its existence as a comics company that produces new and varied content or even being micromanaged to the point where it becomes an empty shell of itself.

I sometimes feel like it has already become an empty shell.

I am buying the least comics that I have ever bought. I don't enjoy most stories anymore. I avoid big events; I have no interest in the latest crisis.

It may be just me, but I feel the fun is gone.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

It’s just an imprint. Vertigo has a great history but it’s been moribund for a long time. They’ve tried multiple relaunches that have failed. The brand has zero cache at this point. This doesn’t mean DC stops publishing mature titles; it just means they no longer have a Vertigo label on them.

This doesn’t herald the end of DC’s publishing division any more than the end of the Helix, Focus, Wildstorm or Paradox Press imprints did.

Except it's not just an imprint. It's symptomatic of something much larger than itself that represents an aspect of DC that did brilliantly outside the direct market, drew in people who wouldn't otherwise read comics and represented a commitment to genuinely embracing comics as an art form for great, innovative and sometimes shocking storytelling. Its death is a problem because it's just further proof that the people running DC don't know what the hell they're doing, have no real vision for the company, and are constantly sabotaging themselves by undermining their own product.

The reason why all these relaunches have failed is precisely because they have continued to make the same mistakes time and time again. Instead of bringing Vertigo back to its roots and its greatest strengths, it keeps on offering creator-owned comics that have neither the creator freedom or cache of those offered by the like of Image or Boom, with no overall vision for what Vertigo is actually supposed to be in the first place.

Also, none of those other reprints have been as important to DC as Vertigo. Not even Wildstorm. Further, while Wildstorm folded quite easily into DC proper, I don't see Vertigo doing that.

[Coco Loco]

Except it's not just an imprint. It's symptomatic of something much larger than itself that represents an aspect of DC that did brilliantly outside the direct market, drew in people who wouldn't otherwise read comics and represented a commitment to genuinely embracing comics as an art form for great, innovative and sometimes shocking storytelling. Its death is a problem because it's just further proof that the people running DC don't know what the hell they're doing, have no real vision for the company, and are constantly sabotaging themselves by undermining their own product.

Also, none of those other reprints have been as important to DC as Vertigo. Not even Wildstorm. Further, while Wildstorm folded quite easily into DC proper, I don't see Vertigo doing that.

Other than Sandman and Fables I don’t know how well Vertigo books have really done outside the DM. Back in the days when I paid attention to such things, people tossed that idea around a lot but the Bookscan numbers didn’t really support it. And if anything, these days the well-known superheroes probably have a lot more mainstream appeal than the more esoteric Vertigo books, due to their visibility in popular culture.

But sure, I agree that Vertigo has a ton of historical significance. You may be right that it was mis-managed by DC. I don’t have an opinion on that. But whatever the reason, the imprint has been DOA for a really long time. (And I say that as someone who enjoys American Carnage and loved Sheriff of Babylon.) But ultimately the imprint being scuttled wouldn’t even be newsworthy except for the history. Vertigo hasn’t had a legit market presence in a long time, and its end doesn’t necessarily point to any change in DC’s publishing strategy other than no longer using a label that doesn’t sell books.

[iron chimp]

People keep talking about vertigo like it was some holy grail of comics. It published some really great stuff but so did Marvel with Epic. So did fantagraphics, dark horse, drawn and quarterly and loads of others.

[Zero Hunter]

It’s just an imprint. Vertigo has a great history but it’s been moribund for a long time. They’ve tried multiple relaunches that have failed. The brand has zero cache at this point. This doesn’t mean DC stops publishing mature titles; it just means they no longer have a Vertigo label on them.

This doesn’t herald the end of DC’s publishing division any more than the end of the Helix, Focus, Wildstorm or Paradox Press imprints did.

I have to agree with this. Vertigo has not really been great for a while now. It has been on a slow decline after hitting it heyday with books like Sandman, Lucifer, Y the Last Man and such. They have still had the occasional great book (I liked Air and House of Mystery), but overall it has been slow steady decline.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

People keep talking about vertigo like it was some holy grail of comics. It published some really great stuff but so did Marvel with Epic. So did fantagraphics, dark horse, drawn and quarterly and loads of others.

And yet none of these made that leap from mainstream to indie with anywhere near the impact of Vertigo at its best. No doubt Epic released some excellent stuff but does any of that have the wider recognition of stuff like Sandman, Y The Last Man, Fables or Transmetropolitan; even stuff like Lucifer or the Invisibles. With those huge tentpole books, even their smaller, often much weirder stuff came with a certain cache just for coming under the Vertigo banner. It was a sign of quality in mainstream comics like nothing else - even if it wasn't always earned. Dark Horse hit it big with Hellboy and Sin City but these were still way more niche and less notable than Sandman or Fables. As for the others, again, yes, loads of good to great stuff (lets not forget massive indie books like Bone and Strangers in Paradise) but they have never broken into the comics mainstream in the way that Vertigo did during its prime.

Vertigo is actually kind of similar to the Beatles. Yes, there were bands and artists doing much more experimental stuff on the sidelines but they never meshed that artistry with mainstream appeal in the way the Beatles did - and certainly not on so consistent a basis. Something very similar can be said about the impact of Vertigo on the comics scene.

[iron chimp]

And yet none of these made that leap from mainstream to indie with anywhere near the impact of Vertigo at its best. No doubt Epic released some excellent stuff but does any of that have the wider recognition of stuff like Sandman, Y The Last Man, Fables or Transmetropolitan; even stuff like Lucifer or the Invisibles. With those huge tentpole books, even their smaller, often much weirder stuff came with a certain cache just for coming under the Vertigo banner. It was a sign of quality in mainstream comics like nothing else - even if it wasn't always earned. Dark Horse hit it big with Hellboy and Sin City but these were still way more niche and less notable than Sandman or Fables. As for the others, again, yes, loads of good to great stuff (lets not forget massive indie books like Bone and Strangers in Paradise) but they have never broken into the comics mainstream in the way that Vertigo did during its prime.

Vertigo is actually kind of similar to the Beatles. Yes, there were bands and artists doing much more experimental stuff on the sidelines but they never meshed that artistry with mainstream appeal in the way the Beatles did - and certainly not on so consistent a basis. Something very similar can be said about the impact of Vertigo on the comics scene.

You could buy Milligan Morrison Wagner Grant Mills in every newsagent every week in UK and you could go into most regular bookshops and buy Hernandez brothers, the Pinis, Dave Sim before Vertigo was even a thing. Daniel Clowes had mainstream hits and no one broke out bigger than Eastman and Laird. I am sure people can think of many more books that broke out comic shop into public consciousness before Vertigos handful of big hits.

[skyvolt2000]

People keep talking about vertigo like it was some holy grail of comics. It published some really great stuff but so did Marvel with Epic. So did fantagraphics, dark horse, drawn and quarterly and loads of others.

True.

However because many of those companies did not bore the DC or Marvel label-they got ignored by comic book stores along with entitlement fans.
However once many of those books got beyond the comic book store-it's a different story.

Anybody remember when First Comics and Eclipse Comics seemed to be the major indie companies that could possibly challenge DC and Marvel?

And they had issue too. Chuck Dixon's Strike had to deal with stores not wanting a book starring a black buy on the shelf (never mind it was the only one on shelves after Powerman & Ironfist ended and Deathlok hadn't started yet- 6 years).
Don't forget Now Comics too with Ghostbusters & Married With Children & Twlight Zone.

Nah, bollocks. No-one ever does any thing instead of telling good stories. They might fail at telling a good story, but they always try.

But quotes like "shoving identity politics" make it sound like you might be a Comicsgate nutjob.

Thank you. When I see crap like that it tells me a few tings-

That group NEVER read the books that they accuse of that.
That they don't KNOW their comic book history.
They take issue with certain writers and LOL-two folks currently working for Vertigo are constant targets of comcisgate-Zoe & Robbi on Goddess Mode.

Where was all this cries of identity politics- when the following books were around?

SCALPED
100 Bullets
American Way 1 & 2-that was about a black guy being a super hero written by an Oscar winner for 12 Years a Slave
Fables
Animal Man
Doom Patrol
Sandman
Swamp Thing
Astro City
Millennium Fever-biracial black kid chased by demons.
Shade The Changling Man
Hellblazer

Vertigo went down as the guys who made them got moved to mainstream DC. Also a lot of those books had a SET ending. You were not going to see 100 Bullets #500. While some could like Scalped-it was not going to happen. Also did they not change some of the rules and compensation for creators?
In other words as a creator would it benefit you to go to Vertigo or Image? Vertigo or Ahoy? The power of choice is what hurt Vertigo more.

[skyvolt2000]

And yet none of these made that leap from mainstream to indie with anywhere near the impact of Vertigo at its best. No doubt Epic released some excellent stuff but does any of that have the wider recognition of stuff like Sandman, Y The Last Man, Fables or Transmetropolitan; even stuff like Lucifer or the Invisibles. With those huge tentpole books, even their smaller, often much weirder stuff came with a certain cache just for coming under the Vertigo banner. It was a sign of quality in mainstream comics like nothing else - even if it wasn't always earned. Dark Horse hit it big with Hellboy and Sin City but these were still way more niche and less notable than Sandman or Fables. As for the others, again, yes, loads of good to great stuff (lets not forget massive indie books like Bone and Strangers in Paradise) but they have never broken into the comics mainstream in the way that Vertigo did during its prime.

Vertigo is actually kind of similar to the Beatles. Yes, there were bands and artists doing much more experimental stuff on the sidelines but they never meshed that artistry with mainstream appeal in the way the Beatles did - and certainly not on so consistent a basis. Something very similar can be said about the impact of Vertigo on the comics scene.

What you are talking about is ACCESS.

Once upon a time it BENEFITED you to go to Vertigo to get your books into places.

Look at Milestone. Could they have gotten all those books on store shelf on their own? NO as McDuffie (or Dingle or Mike Davis) pointed out they went with Dc for the DISTRIBUTION. Because for the most part at that time it was Dc, Marvel, Dark Horse (especially once they got Star Wars, Terminator, Buffy & Aliens) and Scholastic. Image SLOWLY came around and while Spawn got slots-the others really didn't until later. Walking Dead changed everything for them.

Vertigo had the market for all that stuff like Sandman.

Now the market has changed. They don't have that advantage anymore.

Now you got IDW, Titan, Boom and others who with the help of franchise like GO Joe, My Little Pony and Star Trek got footholds in stores.

A book like Wicked + Divine from Image will get the same shelf space (or more) as Clean Room or Goddess Mode.

[DragonsChi]

Man I feel sorry for some of the people in this thread. Because if things keep going at this rate some of the people coming up with all of these ill informed reasons on why the comic division survives will be the most disappointed when it doesn't.

Hopefully, for all our sake's DC will figure there mess out and most can continue to live in the dark about whats going on. Not for nothing DC has been doing a better job compared to previous years but even still things aren't looking good.

The stores closing shop is the early warning, Vertigo will be the 3rd publishing house/division to close in under a year, so it's literally only a matter of time before the Big two doesn't get dragged down. Writing is on the wall.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

You could buy Milligan Morrison Wagner Grant Mills in every newsagent every week in UK and you could go into most regular bookshops and buy Hernandez brothers, the Pinis, Dave Sim before Vertigo was even a thing. Daniel Clowes had mainstream hits and no one broke out bigger than Eastman and Laird. I am sure people can think of many more books that broke out comic shop into public consciousness before Vertigos handful of big hits.

What, you mean like Watchmen? Or Maus?

I'm not saying that great comics didn't exist before Vertigo but DC's British Invasion brought those British creators to MUCH larger audiences and the other comics you mention were indie by definition so they didn't largely have the same level of clout as what came out of Vertigo. No matter how good they were, they just didn't. Cerebus and Love and Rockets were major critical darlings but how well known were they by the general comics-buying public, let alone the rest of the world? As for TMNT, that's slightly different. Obviously, it's one of the biggest comics properties ever and certainly the biggest to be based on an indie comic (I don't even think Walking Dead comes close to the cultural impact of the Turtles) but, again, how big were the actual comics? How many people even knew they were based on comics or that the comics were radically different from the kid-friendly '80s cartoon?

Vertigo didn't create the graphic novel. They didn't create excellent comics for mature readers. They weren't even the first adult-oriented imprint from the Big 2 or the first DC comics to feature adult content and to wrack up tons of critical acclaim. They were, however, the first mainstream line of comics to truly popularize the sort of stuff that was already being done elsewhere and to offer a certain stamp of quality that gave the name "Vertigo" as much cache as any of the actual writers or artists who worked on it. This is an incredibly important contribution and I daresay that without Vertigo, companies like Image or Boom would never have enjoyed the popularity and profitability they now rightly enjoy.

[Coco Loco]

Man I feel sorry for some of the people in this thread. Because if things keep going at this rate some of the people coming up with all of these ill informed reasons on why the comic division survives will be the most disappointed when it doesn't.

Hopefully, for all our sake's DC will figure there mess out and most can continue to live in the dark about whats going on. Not for nothing DC has been doing a better job compared to previous years but even still things aren't looking good.

The stores closing shop is the early warning, Vertigo will be the 3rd publishing house/division to close in under a year, so it's literally only a matter of time before the Big two doesn't get dragged down. Writing is on the wall.

According to the internet, the Direct Market has been on the verge of collapse since the advent of the internet.

One day I suppose it’ll actually happen. When it does, it’ll probably be something far removed from whether an imprint gets scuttled.

[KC]

They have no reason to shut down DC comics. And thinking they will just because the Vertigo line might shut-down is just silly.

[iron chimp]

What, you mean like Watchmen? Or Maus?

I'm not saying that great comics didn't exist before Vertigo but DC's British Invasion brought those British creators to MUCH larger audiences and the other comics you mention were indie by definition so they didn't largely have the same level of clout as what came out of Vertigo. No matter how good they were, they just didn't. Cerebus and Love and Rockets were major critical darlings but how well known were they by the general comics-buying public, let alone the rest of the world? As for TMNT, that's slightly different. Obviously, it's one of the biggest comics properties ever and certainly the biggest to be based on an indie comic (I don't even think Walking Dead comes close to the cultural impact of the Turtles) but, again, how big were the actual comics? How many people even knew they were based on comics or that the comics were radically different from the kid-friendly '80s cartoon?

Vertigo didn't create the graphic novel. They didn't create excellent comics for mature readers. They weren't even the first adult-oriented imprint from the Big 2 or the first DC comics to feature adult content and to wrack up tons of critical acclaim. They were, however, the first mainstream line of comics to truly popularize the sort of stuff that was already being done elsewhere and to offer a certain stamp of quality that gave the name "Vertigo" as much cache as any of the actual writers or artists who worked on it. This is an incredibly important contribution and I daresay that without Vertigo, companies like Image or Boom would never have enjoyed the popularity and profitability they now rightly enjoy.

Again this is UK specific but the indie guys had way more clout in bookshops - you could buy all the trades of cerebus Love and rockets and elfquest - in fact DC had to use some of the indie guys distro deals to get into bookshops themselves through Titan. Spiegelman was published by Penguin (I think?) so he was readily available in mainstream bookshops. DC and Marvel had none of this.

It was same with music - if a guy sneezed in Seattle in 1988 a week later that was on marble vinyl 7" in any indie shop in UK . If a black dude in Detroit passed out on his commodore amiga it was on a 12" dubplate a week later and being played to 1000s of people at a rave in UK as the hottest new Detroit techno. Obviously I exaggerate but that's how good the distro was and that's how much power US indie scene as a whole had in UK in 1980s.

[Ilan Preskovsky]

True.

However because many of those companies did not bore the DC or Marvel label-they got ignored by comic book stores along with entitlement fans.
However once many of those books got beyond the comic book store-it's a different story.




And they had issue too. Chuck Dixon's Strike had to deal with stores not wanting a book starring a black buy on the shelf (never mind it was the only one on shelves after Powerman & Ironfist ended and Deathlok hadn't started yet- 6 years).
Don't forget Now Comics too with Ghostbusters & Married With Children & Twlight Zone.




Thank you. When I see crap like that it tells me a few tings-

That group NEVER read the books that they accuse of that.
That they don't KNOW their comic book history.
They take issue with certain writers and LOL-two folks currently working for Vertigo are constant targets of comcisgate-Zoe & Robbi on Goddess Mode.

Where was all this cries of identity politics- when the following books were around?

SCALPED
100 Bullets
American Way 1 & 2-that was about a black guy being a super hero written by an Oscar winner for 12 Years a Slave
Fables
Animal Man
Doom Patrol
Sandman
Swamp Thing
Astro City
Millennium Fever-biracial black kid chased by demons.
Shade The Changling Man
Hellblazer

Vertigo went down as the guys who made them got moved to mainstream DC. Also a lot of those books had a SET ending. You were not going to see 100 Bullets #500. While some could like Scalped-it was not going to happen. Also did they not change some of the rules and compensation for creators?
In other words as a creator would it benefit you to go to Vertigo or Image? Vertigo or Ahoy? The power of choice is what hurt Vertigo more.

Posts like this make me wish there was a "like" button on these forums.

What you are talking about is ACCESS.

Once upon a time it BENEFITED you to go to Vertigo to get your books into places.

Look at Milestone. Could they have gotten all those books on store shelf on their own? NO as McDuffie (or Dingle or Mike Davis) pointed out they went with Dc for the DISTRIBUTION. Because for the most part at that time it was Dc, Marvel, Dark Horse (especially once they got Star Wars, Terminator, Buffy & Aliens) and Scholastic. Image SLOWLY came around and while Spawn got slots-the others really didn't until later. Walking Dead changed everything for them.

Vertigo had the market for all that stuff like Sandman.

Now the market has changed. They don't have that advantage anymore.

Now you got IDW, Titan, Boom and others who with the help of franchise like GO Joe, My Little Pony and Star Trek got footholds in stores.

A book like Wicked + Divine from Image will get the same shelf space (or more) as Clean Room or Goddess Mode.

I don't disagree. I do think that what Vertigo did have in its prime that just about no one else does these days is a strong editorial vision that would both give the line a certain feel, even when the actual genres tackled were often very different, and would ensure that the art and writing kept to a certain level of professionalism and quality. Bless the smaller companies but I have come across stuff published from them that honestly has no business being published and/ or could desperately need an editor.