Rumblers League Week 2: KJS vs Stigmazilla

[Jcogginsa]

2) The Snap took "50%" of living creatures. Wakanda had billions of blades of grass, millions of plants, thousands of trees. Not one blade of grass disappeared.

Moreover, we see another example of the Snap taking place in a green area at the start of Avengers: Endgame, on Clint's farm. Again, not one blade of grass disappeared.

By definition, hundreds of millions of blades of grass, hundreds of thousands of plants, and at least hundreds of trees should have disappeared. The fact that NOT ONE blade of grass disappeared from those scenes is way beyond probability. It didn't happen, because plants and greenery DIDN'T disappear in the Snap.

Ergo, WoG isn't true. And even if it was, it's not canon here.

(And, just to point out, I can't fit my reply to Stigma into this post, so I AM having to use two because of the extra call-outs to my strategy).

3) Wait, what?

It has no proof that it bypasses durability?

Cull Obsidian is a Hulk-level being. He went toe-to-toe with the Hulkbuster. He came out of a fight against Nanotech Iron Man unscathed - the same Iron Man who made Thanos bleed when he had four Infinity Stones.

It literally bypassed the durability of someone Iron Man couldn't make bleed. The same Iron Man who DID make Thanos bleed.

How does it not bypass durability when it cut the hand off someone incredibly durable?

Moreover, the portals are more magically potent here, as I've said many, many times. They are amped. They can do more damage than was ever shown in the MCU.

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1. "The Snap didn't effect plants because he see green places" is a ludicrous assertion. We see plenty of people in endgame, but that doesn't mean the Snap didn't effect them. And who got snapped was a random choice, so the fact that none of the Avengers saw plants getting snapped proves nothing.

2. Stark got Thanos to bleed after a lengthy fight. Against Cull Obsidian, Start used mostly blasts, the majority of which Cull Obsidian blocked with a shield. So the Cull obsidian fight isn't really any evidence that Cull is tougher than Thanos

3. I wasn't aware that you couldn't fit all the responses in one post. Most forums I visit allow for a lot of posts to get quoted. exposes a big design flaw in this system, if spectators get unlimited posts and the fighters have to split up a limited number of responses.

[KJS]

1. "The Snap didn't effect plants because he see green places" is a ludicrous assertion. We see plenty of people in endgame, but that doesn't mean the Snap didn't effect them. And who got snapped was a random choice, so the fact that none of the Avengers saw plants getting snapped proves nothing.

What are you actually talking about?

We see TWO green places (Wakanda and the Bartons' farm) DURING the snap. WHILE it is happening. We see people disappearing IN those places - in both Wakanda and on the farm - and no greenery is disappearing in either of them.

Seeing people in Endgame has nothing to do with it - and that is not what I said, so it's not a ridiculous assertion. If I was claiming what you've weirdly interpreted, it would be ridiculous. But the fact is when the snap was actually occurring - i.e. while people were visibly disappearing - greenery wasn't. We literally see plantlife NOT BEING AFFECTED by the snap while the snap is happening. In two different places.

Heck, there are even SOME trees in another place we see the snap taking place - in the post-credits scene with Nick Fury and Maria Hill. There are several trees by the side of the road. None of them disappear.

That is literally three rock solid examples of plantlife NOT disappearing in the snap. And I've provided links literally showing it - actual evidence, which is what counts here. And there are ZERO examples to the contrary.

Prove otherwise or accept that you're actually wrong. The apparent "WoG" is wrong, therefore - and, again for the umpeenth time, it doesn't even count on these forums, so I don't get the point of this at all.

I'm not actually wasting any more of my time on this argument, because you're using my posts up while ignoring evidence and making your own forum rules up.

2. Stark got Thanos to bleed after a lengthy fight. Against Cull Obsidian, Start used mostly blasts, the majority of which Cull Obsidian blocked with a shield. So the Cull obsidian fight isn't really any evidence that Cull is tougher than Thanos.

I never said he was tougher than Thanos. Just that he's tough. With evidence being that he fought Iron Man and the Hulkbuster - two powerful characters - without taking damage.

Therefore, he IS durable. And the portal DOES bypass his durability, so your assertion that "the portals don't bypass durability" is really the most ridiculous thing being argued here.

It cut through a Hulk-level character with absolutely no problems. There was no resistance from Cull Obsidian's arm whatsoever. It stands to reason, therefore, that it can go higher than that. Especially given that, for the hundredth time, these portals are amped and more potent.

If it had struggled to cut through Cull, we could realistically assume that someone of Cull's durability was its limit. But it didn't. Especially when it's amped and more potent.

[Jcogginsa]

What are you actually talking about?

We see TWO green places (Wakanda and the Bartons' farm) DURING the snap. WHILE it is happening. We see people disappearing IN those places - in both Wakanda and on the farm - and no greenery is disappearing in either of them.

Seeing people in Endgame has nothing to do with it - and that is not what I said, so it's not a ridiculous assertion. If I was claiming what you've weirdly interpreted, it would be ridiculous. But the fact is when the snap was actually occurring - i.e. while people were visibly disappearing - greenery wasn't. We literally see plantlife NOT BEING AFFECTED by the snap while the snap is happening. In two different places.

Heck, there are even SOME trees in another place we see the snap taking place - in the post-credits scene with Nick Fury and Maria Hill. There are several trees by the side of the road. None of them disappear.

That is literally three rock solid examples of plantlife NOT disappearing in the snap. And I've provided links literally showing it - actual evidence, which is what counts here. And there are ZERO examples to the contrary.

Prove otherwise or accept that you're actually wrong. The apparent "WoG" is wrong, therefore - and, again for the umpeenth time, it doesn't even count on these forums, so I don't get the point of this at all.



I never said he was tougher than Thanos. Just that he's tough. With evidence being that he fought Iron Man and the Hulkbuster - two powerful characters - without taking damage.

Therefore, he IS durable. And the portal DOES bypass his durability, so your assertion that "the portals don't bypass durability" is really the most ridiculous thing being argued here.

It cut through a Hulk-level character with absolutely no problems. There was no resistance from Cull Obsidian's arm whatsoever. It stands to reason, therefore, that it can go higher than that. Especially given that, for the hundredth time, these portals are amped and more potent.

If it had struggled to cut through Cull, we could realistically assume that someone of Cull's durability was its limit. But it didn't. Especially when it's amped and more potent.

1. Not seeing greenery disappear in Wakanda and on the Barton farm does not prove anything. All it means is that the plants in those areas weren't chosen by the snap

2. I want to make something very clear here: Bypassing durability means that a characters durability is rendered irrelevant. It means that the durability of an object has no impact on the results of being struck by the attack. What we're debating here is whether or not the Portals can do that, not whether they can over come the durability of the characters in the match. If you want to argue that the portals can overcome the durability of the characters you are having them used on, then you need to start comparing durability feats from Cull to those characters

And no, cutting Cull Obsidian does not prove that the portals bypass durability. All it proves is that Cull isn't tough enough to not be cut

[KJS]

You are actually hilarious.

[Cleric of Hell’s Brigade]

The portal thing is weird.

The Russo’s said it probably wouldn’t have worked against Thanos because he’s too tough, but that never made sense. He’s not leagues tougher than Hulk or Cull Obsidian, and it worked just fine on the latter (done by a “weaker” sorcerer than Strange).

On a giant Kaiju.....ehh, maybe. If a portal could be big enough.......

[Darth Drizzle]

The portal is weird because it's not a blade, or Ring of fire, but literally space/dimension/reality closing off.

So technically it should work on damn near anything as almost nobody has feats of resisting a space/dimensional/reality rift suddenly closing on them.

But I guess we can say is it is powerful enough to cut Cull and go from there.

The 50% thing is another hard to peg thing that I am still looking through.

Good points and counter points in this match for sure.

[Jcogginsa]

The portal is weird because it's not a blade, or Ring of fire, but literally space/dimension/reality closing off.

So technically it should work on damn near anything as almost nobody has feats of resisting a space/dimensional/reality rift suddenly closing on them.

But I guess we can say is it is powerful enough to cut Cull and go from there.

The 50% thing is another hard to peg thing that I am still looking through.

Good points and counter points in this match for sure.

Or the Portal simply isn't strong enough to close around something that tough

[KJS]

1. Not seeing greenery disappear in Wakanda and on the Barton farm does not prove anything. All it means is that the plants in those areas weren't chosen by the snap

So, in spite of the fact that people disappeared EVERYWHERE, in groups of approximately 50%, you are suggesting that greenery conveniently disappeared in large chunks in very specific places, as opposed to 50% from everywhere? People were shown to be disappearing from everywhere on screen, but you've conveniently decided to make your own rule up without any evidence to support it?

Why am I not surprised?

Honestly, I think you're just being deliberately obtuse for the sake of it now. It's annoying, but funny.

But just to further add to the massive amounts of existing evidence I've provided, this is the planet Thanos retired to: Here. 23 days had passed - not enough time for new trees to grow.

Does it look like 50% of the green area was decimated on there? Are there bare patches? Holes in the ground where trees were?

Nope - so that's FOUR examples of large areas where no greenery disappeared.

Moreover, here is Natasha Romanoff assessing the damage: "Thanos did exactly what he said he was gonna do - he wiped out 50% of all living creatures".

"CREATURES". Definition: an animal, as distinct from a human being.

Plants, trees and greenery are not creatures.

That's FIVE lots of linked evidence. I'm yet to see anything contradicting it, other than your words and the apparent WoG of directors, which don't apply here. As per the actual rules.

2. I want to make something very clear here: Bypassing durability means that a characters durability is rendered irrelevant. It means that the durability of an object has no impact on the results of being struck by the attack. What we're debating here is whether or not the Portals can do that, not whether they can over come the durability of the characters in the match.

And no, cutting Cull Obsidian does not prove that the portals bypass durability. All it proves is that Cull isn't tough enough to not be cut

Which, by definition, means it BYPASSED HIS DURABILITY. What on EARTH is so hard to understand about that? Denying it is just ridiculous and genuinely makes you look a little odd. How does bypassing durability in order to cut his hand off NOT prove that it bypasses durability? That's literally what it's doing.

If you want to argue that the portals can overcome the durability of the characters you are having them used on, then you need to start comparing durability feats from Cull to those characters.

Oh and, by the way, I've done this. Just goes to show how much you've been reading. Surtur is very much lacking in durability feats.

Moreover, the Russos simply have NOT said what you're claiming they've said. I've just looked this up. They said "Thanos' skin is almost impenetrable, we don't know whether Doctor Strange had the capability to do it. If he failed to cut it on time, Thanos would still be able to do the snap. Doctor Strange realised this issue during his millions of test runs."

That's it, that's what they said. Actual quote. "We don't know" and "if he failed to cut it on time" i.e. before he snapped. Not that he couldn't do it AT ALL. Just that he might not be able to do it quick enough, immediately before the snap, to prevent the snap happening. The words "we don't know", however, are key here.

On another unrelated occasion (i.e. NOT in a discussion about portals), they said he has "invincible skin" - which, not only doesn't make sense, but has also been categorically proven not to be true on screen (Iron Man cutting him, Stormbreaker penetrating his chest, the Infinity Stones burning him, Thor cutting his hand off, Thor cutting his head off etc etc). The "invincible skin" thing has been shown to be completely untrue on several occasions, proving WoG is not canon (and, I reiterate for the umpteenth time, WoG doesn't apply here).

From the rules of THIS very forum:

Narrative hyperbole or speech hyperbole are also not considered valid evidence for a character's feats.

That should be the end of it. The end of it SHOULD actually have been several days ago.

But, more to the point, the only time that Strange faced Thanos head-on, Thanos was wielding four Infinity Stones - so he'd be more durable than usual, and could counteract the portals with the Tesseract etc. That was a Thanos more powerful than anyone has ever been in the MCU - and more powerful than anyone in this fight. So even IF the Russos had said what you are claiming (they haven't) and even IF it was true (it isn't), they were referring to a very amped Thanos, and that would NOT mean the people in this fight were too durable, because they are NOT more durable than a massively amped Thanos with four Infinity Stones - which was the only Thanos Strange ever faced.

The portal thing is weird.

The Russo’s said it probably wouldn’t have worked against Thanos because he’s too tough, but that never made sense. He’s not leagues tougher than Hulk or Cull Obsidian, and it worked just fine on the latter (done by a “weaker” sorcerer than Strange).

Exactly this. It never made sense.

It's also irrelevant because "WoG" doesn't apply on this forum. As per the rules about hyperbole etc.

On a giant Kaiju.....ehh, maybe. If a portal could be big enough.......

Portals were opened that allowed the entire armies of Wakanda etc to come through. And Strange is still very much amped here, so he can create portals that are bigger and better in every sense of the word.

The portal is weird because it's not a blade, or Ring of fire, but literally space/dimension/reality closing off.

So technically it should work on damn near anything as almost nobody has feats of resisting a space/dimensional/reality rift suddenly closing on them.

Another very valid point. Surtur or the Kaiju have never survived having reality close off around them. Prove they can.

The 50% thing is another hard to peg thing that I am still looking through.

It's completely irrelevant to this match, incidentally. I hope you realise that. It's just proving that "WoG" isn't canon - which, in turn, renders the Russos saying "Thanos has invincible skin" a load of poppycock.

Re: the fight as a whole, a few reminders:

- Too much of the opposing strategy is vague. Writing "character A attacks" is not a legitimate tactic - especially not when there are things like a four mile gap, two shields, teleportation and invisibility to overcome.
- Again, the shield is not anticipated. Not at all. This point was completely ignored in counter-arguments.
- Neither is the teleport. This was ignored in counter-arguments too.
- On the contrary, I've responded to every single point in this thread with a counter-argument.
- Jean does such a simple move (essentially "prevent Xavier from focusing"), which is far easier to pull-off than the complex move Xavier is attempting ("make Jasmine's image appear in the minds of the entire opposing team", which is SIX people). Therefore, Jean's move happens quicker and more efficiently.
- Xavier is NOT helping to control Ego. Not at all. That isn't written. To have that as part of the counter-argument was a completely uncool lie.
- The telepathic amp happens because Xavier's first targets, as written, are Jean and J'onn. The Doctor is therefore free to do the amping.
- Jean and J'onn then become FAR too powerful for Xavier.
- The image of Jasmine absolutely wouldn't work. Xavier has no feats of projecting an image with a magic aura. It worked in the Buffyverse ON TELEVISION, which is completely different - AND it was happening in a magic-heavy universe, which invariably influences people and the world around it in weird ways. There is no proof whatsoever that Xavier can project an image with a magic aura.
- Nobody is crossing four miles before the shield goes up.
- Nobody has feats of resisting reality/mind whammy Hancock does with the Mask.
- Our strategy happens in two parts, meaning there are extra backup plans. Our opponent's doesn't.
- I have provided huge amounts of evidence. My opponent has provided zero. Evidence is important.

[KJS]

Five days have passed on this one, discussion over.

Poll to be posted in a couple of days.