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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Which sadly is the only bit of hopefulness in the whole story. And that you're hoping for peace to fail kind of shows how messed up it all is.
    Honestly were you (or our other colleague in comicdom Agent Z) even a teensy, weeny bit depressed when reading the story??

    I wasn't. I found it a refreshingly enjoyable thought provoking read.

    Miles less depressing than standard super hero fare...where reader is supposed to believe that Hulk can go berserk, Cosmic wars take place...but nobody ever dies. The standard stuff often glamourises violence (I don't think Watchmen did)...I find the glamourisation of violence potentially far more troubling.

  2. #17
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    Honestly were you (or our other colleague in comicdom Agent Z) even a teensy, weeny bit depressed when reading the story??
    Hard to say, I'm one of those who've only watched the movie and the motion comic as opposed to reading the novel itself, and even if I were to read it I wouldn't exactly be going in fresh since the internet spoiled me on every single detail about it long ago. Kind of hard to gauge what you should be feeling when you knew every plotline and reveal a decade ahead of even really getting big into comics. It's like asking anyone under, I don't know, 40 if they were really surprised by the reveal that Darth Vader is Luke's dad, kind of the wrong generation to get a feel for it.

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Hard to say, I'm one of those who've only watched the movie and the motion comic as opposed to reading the novel itself, and even if I were to read it I wouldn't exactly be going in fresh since the internet spoiled me on every single detail about it long ago. Kind of hard to gauge what you should be feeling when you knew every plotline and reveal a decade ahead of even really getting big into comics. It's like asking anyone under, I don't know, 40 if they were really surprised by the reveal that Darth Vader is Luke's dad, kind of the wrong generation to get a feel for it.
    I thought it was thought provoking in that reader was left to decide who was the hero (Rorschach, Ozymandias, or Manhattan)...or maybe conclude that none was, that the story was just “arguing” that conventions applied in comics can never solve real life problems.

    Incidentally, how did you find the movie? (I remember it mostly getting poor reviews at time it came out..but I’ve recently seen it feature in a fair few “best recent SF/ fantasy film” lists. Never seen it..but I have started watching more films recently....)

  4. #19
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    I thought it was thought provoking in that reader was left to decide who was the hero (Rorschach, Ozymandias, or Manhattan)...or maybe conclude that none was, that the story was just “arguing” that conventions applied in comics can never solve real life problems.

    Incidentally, how did you find the movie? (I remember it mostly getting poor reviews at time it came out..but I’ve recently seen it feature in a fair few “best recent SF/ fantasy film” lists. Never seen it..but I have started watching more films recently....)
    Personally, I think it was good, but it suffers a lot from the same crap that dragged Snyder's DC films down, so depending on how you feel about those might influence how well you'll enjoy this (aka the faults are the action is awesome flair but arguably misses the point of these being non-powered grounded characters, it's pretty humorless no-fun, and it lasts fucking forever; it's strengths are it looks cool as fuck and the action is awesome flair).

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Personally, I think it was good, but it suffers a lot from the same crap that dragged Snyder's DC films down, so depending on how you feel about those might influence how well you'll enjoy this (aka the faults are the action is awesome flair but arguably misses the point of these being non-powered grounded characters, it's pretty humorless no-fun, and it lasts fucking forever; it's strengths are it looks cool as fuck and the action is awesome flair).
    Cheers. Iíll most likely give a look when Iím in mood for a fantasy action movie.

  6. #21
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    Why does DC write such dark,depressing Stories without hope inside?
    Probably because they $ell, while comic books like old-school Archie didn't sell nearly as well?

  7. #22
    Incredible Member OpaqueGiraffe17's Avatar
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    I think it’s mostly just Tom King’s stuff that are depressingly bleak to read. There are other dark books but I think King’s work is on another level.

  8. #23
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    Seems to me if all comic books were doing is delivering dark, depressing stories, then they would be a lot shorter. Obviously there's much more in those comics than just the dark and the depressing stuff. I guess it depends where you decide to end the story. Comedies can be tragedies. Boy loves girl can be upbeat, but if the story continues to boy loses girl, then it turns dark, and if it continues to boy wins girl back, then it becomes happy again. Then again, if the boy is a stalker and the girl is the object of his obsession, all those stages of the story become the inverse.

    The funny thing is that THE KILLING JOKE ends on a happy note. Is it a sad story--in parts, yes. But I remember feeling quite happy with a lot of TKJ the first time I read it. Sure, the stuff with Barbara and Jim Gordon is grim dark, but there's a lot of other stuff in the panels that is absolutely exhilarating and fun. If you like comic book art, there's much there to feel happy about.

  9. #24
    Wally West Aficionado Spider-Ham's Avatar
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    Can you guys tell me what happened in Young Justice that's so bad and depressing ?
    The Flash is not about Tragedy - Wally West Appreciation Thread : 376 pages.
    Wally West Appreciation Thread 2018 : 94 pages
    Good stories must survive : https://theflashlives.com/

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    ...
    The funny thing is that THE KILLING JOKE ends on a happy note. Is it a sad story--in parts, yes. But I remember feeling quite happy with a lot of TKJ the first time I read it. Sure, the stuff with Barbara and Jim Gordon is grim dark, but there's a lot of other stuff in the panels that is absolutely exhilarating and fun. If you like comic book art, there's much there to feel happy about.
    Batman actually sharing a laugh with the Joker at the end of "Killing Joke" after all the horrible crimes he had just committed was not a happy ending, from my pov. That's Batman losing it...

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member Dark-Flux's Avatar
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    I feel the opposite tbh. I think the only reason we focus on the dark or depressing books so much is because the stand out from the usual output.

    It seems to me the vast majority of DCs books end with the villain defeated and a 'tomorrow is a new day!' mentality. A book isnt dark just because it showcases conflict or has deconstructive elements.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    Batman actually sharing a laugh with the Joker at the end of "Killing Joke" after all the horrible crimes he had just committed was not a happy ending, from my pov. That's Batman losing it...
    That's your choice, but there are so many Brechtian devices in THE KILLING JOKE that you don't have to see it as anything but a comic book story--no one was actually harmed in the making of this comic book. Cue "The Walk of Life."

  13. #28
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    Batman actually sharing a laugh with the Joker at the end of "Killing Joke" after all the horrible crimes he had just committed was not a happy ending, from my pov. That's Batman losing it...
    If you subscribe to the theory that the last panels showed Batman starting to strangle the Joker to death it feels kind of like a happy ending.
    Well, for me anyways.

  14. #29
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    This is a myth. They do such stories, and do them with much greater frequency than they did during the Golden, Silver, and Bronze Age, but they don't do them exclusively and, in this practice, are far from unique or even exceptional.

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  15. #30
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    If you subscribe to the theory that the last panels showed Batman starting to strangle the Joker to death it feels kind of like a happy ending.
    Well, for me anyways.
    Except Killing Joke was rolled over into main continuity, with Joker still very much around.

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