Wishes for a Reboot..

[Vakanai]

Marvel (and DC) have been making it work for decades. I mean, think about it. Spider-Man being about 30 now when he started as a teenager while everyone else was already an adult means that's that Tony Stark, Hank Pym, Reed Richards, and Bruce Banner should be in their 50-60s at least. As WWII gets further away, Magneto would need to be about 80+ to maintain his backstory as a Holocaust survivor. There are several other examples. Its just one of those things that people accept through suspension of disbelief and, in the end, its a lot easier to accept that characters in their 50s, 60s, and 80s are just in really good shape than it is to try and erase and reconfigure decades of continuity.

(Only skimmed through this but...) Disagree, I'd like Marvel to reboot more officially than they do. The tiny reboots via sliding time scale thing feel disingenuous to me. Cap's time on ice gets longer and longer, Magneto looks younger and younger (and more alive-y) for a Holocaust survivor, not even sure what war or part of the world Iron Man's origin is supposed to be anymore, and justifying 60's nerdy Parker with the chemistry set gets harder to do the more recent his teenage years are supposed to be. The Marvel way has it's problems too.

Not many. New 52 Superman was deeply unpopular. That's why they basically wiped him out to begin with.

Action/the origin was seemingly popular.

[Sacred Knight]

As was Batman/Superman, as was Superman/Wonder Woman. It was mostly the Superman title specific with the most problems. The concept of New 52 Superman as a whole only suffered in that, again mostly with the Superman title being the culprit, there was a lack of cohesion with his characterization at times. The other titles seemed to get it, but the more editorially mandated Superman title was all over the map. But as a whole, it was not deeply unpopular. But Johns wasn't a big fan as well as other writers and when their turn came back around, they got rid of him. Its just what comes with the schism at DC that's existed through all these initiatives. And I'd strongly argue that neither vision has ever displayed a significant, and more importantly than anything consistent, leg-up on the other, ever. And I'm not talking just New 52 vs Rebirth. Both main minds have their deep flaws.

[Krypto's Fleas]

It's an unpopular opinion here, but I really wish for a full, hard, clean slate reboot starting everybody back at their origins again and ditching all legacies for a good 5-10 years when they're reintroduced as sidekicks once more. So Batman back at the beginning of his solo career, then later teamed up with young Richard Grayson as Robin. Superman back in his year one, secret identity a mystery to Lois for the first few years. Barry Allen still new as the Flash, just starting to date Iris. Again, a lot of people here hate the idea, but it's the only reboot I want to see.

I think this is the right approach. Take the post-crisis reboot approach and start from scratch, and not the lazy New52 approach of blurring the lines.

[Shadowedeyes]

As pointed out earlier, you end up dumping a lot of characters, and will likely end up with a pretty big lack of diversity with a full on complete reboot. And since when was post-crisis a start from scratch? We had a whole bunch of continuity snags after Crisis on Infinite Earths.

[Vakanai]

As pointed out earlier, you end up dumping a lot of characters, and will likely end up with a pretty big lack of diversity with a full on complete reboot.

Eh, I don't mind dumping a lot of the legacy characters for a while, they can always be introduced as sidekicks again. As for the lack of diversity, outside of legacies I disagree. No reason Black Lightning or a young Cyborg can't be around in the beginning, no reason Superman can't introduce Steel early. As long as you make it clear that there must be a push for diversity in the comics from the beginning, an editorial mandate on it, there should still be diversity.

[Sacred Knight]

Legacy is why I'd have two lines. I have little use for it personally, outside of the first gen like Dick Grayson, but it is popular.

[SiegePerilous02]

As pointed out earlier, you end up dumping a lot of characters, and will likely end up with a pretty big lack of diversity with a full on complete reboot. And since when was post-crisis a start from scratch? We had a whole bunch of continuity snags after Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Yes, rebooting halfway is how we got the Donna Troy mess, among other things.

Eh, I don't mind dumping a lot of the legacy characters for a while, they can always be introduced as sidekicks again. As for the lack of diversity, outside of legacies I disagree. No reason Black Lightning or a young Cyborg can't be around in the beginning, no reason Superman can't introduce Steel early. As long as you make it clear that there must be a push for diversity in the comics from the beginning, an editorial mandate on it, there should still be diversity.

Steel was introduced in Morrison's New 52 Action, so yeah it's not hard to get some diversity still even without the legacies. People just expect that the characters would have to be introduced in the same order, but we have an actual comic that introduces Steel around the same time Superman is starting out. so whatever. John Stewart is Hal's co-lead, and there's no reason he can't be introduced a little bit after Hal becomes GL when the mythos is still fresh. Vixen, Katana, Dr. Light (Hoshi), Black Lightning, Vibe, Cyborg, Element Woman (New 52 already had her around, and she's more of a distaff counterpart than a legacy) and others could all show up "But it gets rid of diversity!" is too simple an argument against the idea of reboots that lacks some common sense.

And looking past the heroes, we have the civilians and supporting casts. The entire Gotham Central cast (chiefly Renee and Allen), the Amazons (Philippus, Euboea, Nubia, Areto) and the Holliday Girls, the Daily Planet staff, Central City police department, Atlanteans, etc. They bring a lot of diversity too, writers just need to focus on that side more.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

They would if it was no longer the version in continuity. New52 rewrote Two Face's origin and it was a classic (admittedly Long Halloween is probably back in and Big Burn is out, but they still did it.

I wouldn't say it was a classic since it was seemingly met with very little fanfare. I'm honestly just hearing about it now and thankfully, it is probably out of continuity.

Eh, can we agree to disagree? I don't think the history being missing was as big of a deal. I mean, there was a time long ago when DC was brand new and didn't have any history, yet no one complained then that DC felt empty (probably, I wasn't alive then). Good creatives take the new world and build that history.

I don't think it's really debatable that people were upset over the missing history. Yes. They were. How many people at conventions constantly chanted the mantra of "Where's Wally?"

Still a retelling, they still changed it some, otherwise why not just reprint Batman #1?

Because it was a modernization like how Marvel came out with their Season One graphic novels a few years back retelling the origins of their characters just in a modern context.

...god I should rest before continuing, but I'm stubborn so...can't read it if it's more than one small paragraph (shut up eyes). Sorry.

Basically the point is this: DC will never reboot fully because the fanbases of their most popular franchises would be alienated and they'd lose them and they can't reboot partially because then the universe makes no sense.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

(Only skimmed through this but...) Disagree, I'd like Marvel to reboot more officially than they do. The tiny reboots via sliding time scale thing feel disingenuous to me. Cap's time on ice gets longer and longer, Magneto looks younger and younger (and more alive-y) for a Holocaust survivor, not even sure what war or part of the world Iron Man's origin is supposed to be anymore, and justifying 60's nerdy Parker with the chemistry set gets harder to do the more recent his teenage years are supposed to be. The Marvel way has it's problems too.

But I don't see anybody on Marvel's staff or in their fanbase clamoring for a reboot. Honestly, the issues you mention are not that hard to overlook. Yes, Captain America's time in the ice gets longer and longer. So? There are specimens preserved in ice from the literal Ice Age. Magneto's mutant powers can explain his longevity. And Iron Man's origin is basically he was kidnapped by terrorists and then escaped. End of story. Plus, the times that Marvel has attempted to futz around with continuity ( OMD *cough*, Heroes Reborn *cough*), its been met with incredible controversy. Heroes Reborn had to be trashed just like the New 52.

Action/the origin was seemingly popular.

Except that was literally the ONLY thing that people seemed to like. It wasn't my cup of tea, though. Either way, pretty much the majority of Superman comics during the New 52 were reviled.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Hard reboot, starts from zero, 15 year duration, Barry dies at year 7, no ressurections ever.

[Vakanai]

I wouldn't say it was a classic since it was seemingly met with very little fanfare. I'm honestly just hearing about it now and thankfully, it is probably out of continuity.

I didn't say Big Burn was a classic, because it wasn't (it was good and alright, just no classic), I'm saying Long Halloween is a classic and they still rewrote Two Face's origin (even if it's probably back to TLH again). You said they wouldn't rewrite how Barbara became paralyzed because TKJ is a classic, I was just pointing out that character stories can be rewritten despite being part of classic stories. You can still have TKJ be a classic story but have it no longer be in continuity and explain Barbara becoming Oracle another way.

I don't think it's really debatable that people were upset over the missing history. Yes. They were. How many people at conventions constantly chanted the mantra of "Where's Wally?"

I didn't say that people weren't upset or made a big noise over it, I just disagree that it was a big deal to most people. I think the section that complained the loudest and was stuck on that one issue was probably a small subset and that the other problems of the New52 were more important to more people. I might just be having a hard time making myself clearly understood because, honestly, you're arguing with a man who's half asleep. Ya got to help try and meet me half way here on trying to understand what I mean to say.

Because it was a modernization like how Marvel came out with their Season One graphic novels a few years back retelling the origins of their characters just in a modern context.

And again, the point is these retellings and modernizations are really just tiny reboots. Little ones, keeping the spirit of the original, but reboots all the same.

Basically the point is this: DC will never reboot fully because the fanbases of their most popular franchises would be alienated and they'd lose them and they can't reboot partially because then the universe makes no sense.

Oh, I agree DC will never reboot, never argued that. Only arguing that they should (disagree that they'd lose enough fanbase over it to matter, but it's a moot point because we'll never know). After all, the thread title is Wishes for a Reboot, so I'm debating what I wish to see. My wish is completely divorced from reality, much as I bemoan the fact.
Also, they reboot partially all the time, and their universe makes no sense. So obviously saying they can't reboot partially is ignoring the fact that they do.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I didn't say Big Burn was a classic, because it wasn't (it was good and alright, just no classic), I'm saying Long Halloween is a classic and they still rewrote Two Face's origin (even if it's probably back to TLH again). You said they wouldn't rewrite how Barbara became paralyzed because TKJ is a classic, I was just pointing out that character stories can be rewritten despite being part of classic stories. You can still have TKJ be a classic story but have it no longer be in continuity and explain Barbara becoming Oracle another way.

I think the fact that it was reverted back pretty much proves my point.

I didn't say that people weren't upset or made a big noise over it, I just disagree that it was a big deal to most people. I think the section that complained the loudest and was stuck on that one issue was probably a small subset and that the other problems of the New52 were more important to more people. I might just be having a hard time making myself clearly understood because, honestly, you're arguing with a man who's half asleep. Ya got to help try and meet me half way here on trying to understand what I mean to say.

I'd say it likely was, since we saw sales dip enough that DC apparently felt the need to respond with Rebirth in the first place.

And again, the point is these retellings and modernizations are really just tiny reboots. Little ones, keeping the spirit of the original, but reboots all the same.

Not necessarily because they track the same events. Reboots, as I define them, are the complete and total wiping away of elements and events.

[Krypto's Fleas]

Hard reboot, starts from zero, 15 year duration, Barry dies at year 7, no ressurections ever.

That would be super interesting from a marketing perspective if they were up front about that. Why not release info saying, "Our universe arcs will be 15 years in length. What you will follow for the next 15 years will be the DC Universe cannon for that period of time, and after that 15 year block we'll do it again to allow for a different creative take. Further, when deaths happen in this timeframe, they will matter. There will be no resurrections or convenient plot devices to bring them back. We want stories to matter, period. So what you see will not be a short-lived gimmick, but rather a chapter in this universe arc."

[Lee Stone]

That would be super interesting from a marketing perspective if they were up front about that. Why not release info saying, "Our universe arcs will be 15 years in length. What you will follow for the next 15 years will be the DC Universe cannon for that period of time, and after that 15 year block we'll do it again to allow for a different creative take. Further, when deaths happen in this timeframe, they will matter. There will be no resurrections or convenient plot devices to bring them back. We want stories to matter, period. So what you see will not be a short-lived gimmick, but rather a chapter in this universe arc."

Until it gets to year 10 and new readers stop coming in because either they feel ten years is too much to catch up on or why get invested in a universe that's ending in five years?

[skyvolt2000]

Steel was introduced in Morrison's New 52 Action, so yeah it's not hard to get some diversity still even without the legacies. People just expect that the characters would have to be introduced in the same order, but we have an actual comic that introduces Steel around the same time Superman is starting out. so whatever. John Stewart is Hal's co-lead, and there's no reason he can't be introduced a little bit after Hal becomes GL when the mythos is still fresh. Vixen, Katana, Dr. Light (Hoshi), Black Lightning, Vibe, Cyborg, Element Woman (New 52 already had her around, and she's more of a distaff counterpart than a legacy) and others could all show up "But it gets rid of diversity!" is too simple an argument against the idea of reboots that lacks some common sense.

And looking past the heroes, we have the civilians and supporting casts. The entire Gotham Central cast (chiefly Renee and Allen), the Amazons (Philippus, Euboea, Nubia, Areto) and the Holliday Girls, the Daily Planet staff, Central City police department, Atlanteans, etc. They bring a lot of diversity too, writers just need to focus on that side more.

A reboot is a SIGNAL to get rid of whoever the heck I want and REWRITE history and PANDER to whoever I want.

If you are starting from ground zero-TIME has to go by for a LOT of folks before they show up.

Oh lets not forget-Tim Drake, Cassandra Cain & Duke & Aqualad & Wallace West are TEENAGERS. Dick Grayson has to have time to be Robin and later Nightwing. Same with the Fab 5. Oh not to mention Damian and his crew.

You have 6 generations of heroes. You going to introduce them all in less than a year or risk losing more fans?

John Stewart fans will be DAMN if they are going to buy a GL book with the claim John is Hal's co-lead. They have done that dance before the last 10+ years.

And honestly NOBODY cares about the introductions-folks care about those guys doing more than be death fodder, background cameos, bed warmers for white guys, ABC after school special projects or PETS for Batman & Damian.