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  1. #106
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theoneandonly View Post
    so all Robin's past Tim and all Superboys past kon be wiped in this reboot because they are not essential? this would mean Damian and Chris Kent any others will be disposed in the trash can.
    Chris Kent was flushed
    Tim's history still is in the trash even in Rebirth when they gave him a modified version of his origin back DC still disposed of any possibility of his Robin past coming back by de aging him.

    Kon is a work in progress. He wasn't chopped and stitched as much as Tim so it's easy restore him
    Damian as problematic as he makes Batman universe mythos has retained all his history.

    In my opinion None of the above are essential.

    In my opinion Dick and Jason are the only two robins essential to the Batman story but I don't get to decide.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    You know, not every minority character is a legacy right?

    And even those that are legacies can pop up a lot earlier than they did in prior continuities.
    I thought you were pushing for a full on reboot?

  3. #108
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    Crucial is OBJECTIVE!! Crucial means that you CANT continue writing Batman without them, if you dont want to take massive changes...

    -His Parents get shot
    -He trains and becomes Batman
    -He meets Red Hood who becomes Joker
    -He goes to Circus adopts Dick
    -Dick gets Nightwing
    -Jason gets Robin and dies and comes back
    -Killing Joke
    -Knightfall
    -other Robins showing up

    This are the CRUCIAL Events which you need to keep a certain Status Quo...

    Dick for example is CRUCIAL,he is every day around Batman so you need to introduce him, Joker also, Tim is also around, you need his history....

    Here look
    http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/up...poilers-4B.jpg
    PERFECT EXAMPLE...some CRUCIAL POINTS, WITHOUT them Superman wouldnt be the same....


    And another time I DIDNT SAY ERASE!!!!

    I just say take like in the picture above 5-6 CRUCIAL MOMENTS!!!! which you need that happened to keep the STATUS QUO alive and the others could be left ambigous..
    Dude all I know is that if DC binned Tim's tenure as Robin and are yet to fully restore it after more than 10 years during which they had 2 reboots then it isn't crucial.

  4. #109
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I thought you were pushing for a full on reboot?
    I am. When I say they can come back, I obviously mean new rebooted versions of them.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Yeah, again you're just cherrypicking what you think the milestones are, what the important details are. And I'm not going to argue with it. If you don't want to believe that fans differ on what some of the important stories are, that's on you.
    AGAIN!!!

    You just DIDNT read what I wrote:

    I said do something like this:
    http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/up...poilers-4B.jpg

    You take really the basics,which you need for NEARLY every Story and you dont erase the rest, but you simply dont show it until you need it..

    And in reality is this:

    -His Parents get shot
    -He trains and becomes Batman
    -He meets Red Hood who becomes Joker
    -He goes to Circus adopts Dick
    -Dick gets Nightwing
    -Jason gets Robin and dies and comes back
    -Killing Joke
    -Knightfall
    -other Robins showing up

    This ARE the crucial parts, BECAUSE Tim,Dick,Jason,Damian are in NEARLY every Story and you need them DAILY...

    Joker and Bane are two of the most popular Villains (also in general) so you need their origin...

    So AGAIN!!

    Crucial is what you need for 80-90% of the Batman Stories and you simply leave the rest unclear and fill it then when you need for OTHER characters etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by theoneandonly View Post
    so all Robin's past Tim and all Superboys past kon be wiped in this reboot because they are not essential? this would mean Damian and Chris Kent any others will be disposed in the trash can.
    Who said that????????

    I NEVER said that!! I ESPECIALLY!!! included JON!!!!!!!!!!


    I WROTE:
    -Superman comes to Earth
    -He becomes Superman
    -He dies in Death of Superman, comes back in Reign of Supermen
    -Conner becomes Part of family
    -Lois and Clark marry and Lois gives Birth to JONATHAN SAMUEL KENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    -Conner becomes Jonathan Samuel Kents big brother

    So in my Version of the Timeline Jonathan Samuel Kent exists, but comes in the family AFTER Conner....

    And in this timeline is no need for CHRIS KENT, simply because they get JONATHAN SAMUEL KENT and CHRIS was introduced because they couldnt get a kid of their own...


    The Sense of my Reboot is, to bring REBIRTH,PRE-FLASHPOINT and NEW52 Characters together, so you DONT need the difficult three timelines explanation

    Just simply say in Conner,Jonathan Example, that Conner came into the family after Reign of Supermen, then Lois and Clark marry and Lois gave birth to Jonathan..

    So you dont need Gemworld etc. just say that its all ONE timeline and they grew up together..

  6. #111
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    AGAIN!!!

    You just DIDNT read what I wrote:
    Oh no, I did, but I'm not going to anymore. Good day.

  7. #112
    Mighty Member Kon93's Avatar
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    OK how about these

    1- everyone lives in the metaverse that is always restarting over time, like they showed in DC with superman BUT everyone remembers their past lives(atleast the ppl involved in the "big fight".

    2- superman Did land in 1938 and was superman and the JSA did happen back then. Then let time move along until the present. Have the JSA old as usual and superman EITHER old and the constant hero, the 1st hero who left earth but is now back, or never ages

    3- DC just "quietly" and over time keeps their characters young and ageless,while letting them live and have ongoing stories that matter, but never put years on their lives

    4- a mix of everything, a cherry picking buffet. Everything could have happened or not, depends on if they want to revisit or ignore things

    Which 1 do u prefer if any?
    You want your SB/kon-el/Conner kent fix

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  8. #113
    Astonishing Member Dark-Flux's Avatar
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    You can agonies over the specifics of a reboot again and again but it's only ever gonna be a temporary fix no matter how its handled. Continuity issues arise, the mythos gets more dense. New readers are confused on where to start or intimidated by 5+ years of stories and old readers lament all the development lost in a constant cycle of reboots. Not to mention its just boring to undo a bunch of stuff and then build back up to a retelling - acting like the Death of Superman 2.0 is in any way exciting or a new Robin origin is a story worth telling.

  9. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    AGAIN!!!

    You just DIDNT read what I wrote
    And you didn't read what he wrote. Posting the same picture showing how you want it done (which itself only shows the death/return story and none the other stuff you view as "crucial") has nothing to do with his argument. He's not arguing against how you show what's crucial but what you view is crucial.

    Just going by what you view as crucial, I'd argue that The Killing Joke isn't crucial anymore. The Red Hood/Batman stuff is already listed as another point on your list (and, even then, IMO it's still not crucial as I'm one of those that feel Joker shouldn't have an origin and should be left as vague). Barbara is Batgirl again and no longer crippled. You don't need her time as Oracle to show she's a tech person. She can just be good at tech. So, to me, it's not crucial.

    Which is exactly the point he was making. What you view as crucial is not what everyone views as crucial.
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  10. #115
    Sun of the Mourning Montressor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Then it's not a clean slate. You still want to cherry pick the bits of continuity you like to keep, such as Superman having a son, Wally having graduated from Kid Flash, etc. Not saying there's anything wrong with it, just saying that's not a clean slate.

    Edit: Also, I don't like the fact that Jonathan Samuel Kent exists, I'd never have given Superman a son. Same for Damian and Batman. Unpopular opinions I know, so unpopular that I feel people on the Superman forums would chuck rotten tomatoes at me if they could, but I think giving them biological kids was taking this damned legacy thing a step too far. But even so, you could bring back popular legacy characters eventually, you'd just have to pick which ones to bring back, when, and how.
    I'm with you, I wouldn't have given them children either. For those of us who care about continuity it poses potential problems in the future. Over at Marvel you had young Franklin Richards who hung out with the Power Pack kids, for example--and as those kids were shown to grow and mature into young adults--at least some of them--Franklin seemed to regress and become even younger. I understand they've aged him up finally, but I can foresee similar problems arising with the Super Sons over time.
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  11. #116
    Astonishing Member Factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kon93 View Post
    OK how about these

    1- everyone lives in the metaverse that is always restarting over time, like they showed in DC with superman BUT everyone remembers their past lives(atleast the ppl involved in the "big fight".

    2- superman Did land in 1938 and was superman and the JSA did happen back then. Then let time move along until the present. Have the JSA old as usual and superman EITHER old and the constant hero, the 1st hero who left earth but is now back, or never ages

    3- DC just "quietly" and over time keeps their characters young and ageless,while letting them live and have ongoing stories that matter, but never put years on their lives

    4- a mix of everything, a cherry picking buffet. Everything could have happened or not, depends on if they want to revisit or ignore things

    Which 1 do u prefer if any?
    Kind of option 4, but this time it should be clear what matters and what doesn't (i.e. ignore Lobdell's TT and cut straight to the new YJ).
    Pre-Flashpoint should be considered as the overall basis, with a few changes made to accomodate the best concepts from the New 52 and Rebirth.

    I'm completely against a hard reboot. We would get YEARS of retreads, most of which wouldn't be nearly as good as the original stories. And don't say they'd actually do new stuff this time. There are some beats that need to happen in other for DC to be recognizable and they've always been too obsessed with the past even when they erased it from existence.
    Just remember what happened to the Titans after Flashpoint. Suddenly NTT no longer happened, yet they tried to recreate that team and those stories multiple times (Lazarus contract, Percy's line-up, Abnnet's many retreads). I'd much father have NTT as canon so they could actually evolve the team beyond those days.
    The best case for keeping continuity is Batman. DC's most successful character is also the one who managed to avoid multiple resets. Ignoring one retcon or another, his story is pretty linear and he didn't need to be completely rebooted with every new Crisis like Wonder Woman.
    The same happened to the GLs after Flashpoint and that franchise is a lot more clean than the Flash's.
    I don't see much need for rebooting Batman or Green Lantern and I wish DC could find a way to restore history from their other characters like Superman, WW, Wally and the Titans. Those are some of the ones that suffered the most from New 52 and that wouldn't have happened if DC respected their past stories.

  12. #117
    Astonishing Member Dark-Flux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Factor View Post
    Kind of option 4, but this time it should be clear what matters and what doesn't (i.e. ignore Lobdell's TT and cut straight to the new YJ).
    Pre-Flashpoint should be considered as the overall basis, with a few changes made to accomodate the best concepts from the New 52 and Rebirth.

    I'm completely against a hard reboot. We would get YEARS of retreads, most of which wouldn't be nearly as good as the original stories. And don't say they'd actually do new stuff this time. There are some beats that need to happen in other for DC to be recognizable and they've always been too obsessed with the past even when they erased it from existence.
    Just remember what happened to the Titans after Flashpoint. Suddenly NTT no longer happened, yet they tried to recreate that team and those stories multiple times (Lazarus contract, Percy's line-up, Abnnet's many retreads). I'd much father have NTT as canon so they could actually evolve the team beyond those days.
    The best case for keeping continuity is Batman. DC's most successful character is also the one who managed to avoid multiple resets. Ignoring one retcon or another, his story is pretty linear and he didn't need to be completely rebooted with every new Crisis like Wonder Woman.
    The same happened to the GLs after Flashpoint and that franchise is a lot more clean than the Flash's.
    I don't see much need for rebooting Batman or Green Lantern and I wish DC could find a way to restore history from their other characters like Superman, WW, Wally and the Titans. Those are some of the ones that suffered the most from New 52 and that wouldn't have happened if DC respected their past stories.
    I agree with a lot of this.

    One of the biggest reasons a lot of these characters can have such convoluted backstories for a new-reader to follow is a direct result of too many reboots.
    You can attempt to have another with a 'but THIS TIME we'll do it right and clean!' mentality. But that just isnt how it can play out in a shared long-form narrative. You either commit yourself to a halfhearted retelling of stories we already have, lose what you liked about the characters in the first place, or else just keep adding to the pile of confusion and incoherence.

  13. #118
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Using diverse characters as civilian and supporting characters while most of your heroes are white, straight and/or male is not going to be considered progressive in 2019 and beyond.

    And yes that is exactly what will happen if you ditch your legacy characters, many of whom have held their own solo books.
    And yet the MCU has done pretty well, even if it's focused primarily on the white dudes from the Silver Age up to this point. And I think a rebootded DCU even without the legacies could still be more diverse than that.

    There are heroes who are not white/male that are not legacies that could be used in a greater capacity than they are, and would be around from the early stages of a reboot because a lot of them are either in the age group of the main heroes or Dick's generation. God knows a lot of them (I'm thinking Vixen in particular) deserve far more of a push than they get. And not all legacies are diverse. It's not like we have a shortage of black haired blue eyed boys in the Batman mythos, so Jason and Tim are not adding much diversity on that front.

    And they can pop up in new roles earlier on in a reboot if there is a good idea for them. So rebooting is not advisable, but if it's going to happen, you have to boil it down to the essentials. And the supporting characters, particularly the cops and the likes of the Amazons, are heroes in their own right even if they don't wear costumes.

  14. #119
    Mighty Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark-Flux View Post
    You can agonies over the specifics of a reboot again and again but it's only ever gonna be a temporary fix no matter how its handled. Continuity issues arise, the mythos gets more dense. New readers are confused on where to start or intimidated by 5+ years of stories and old readers lament all the development lost in a constant cycle of reboots. Not to mention its just boring to undo a bunch of stuff and then build back up to a retelling - acting like the Death of Superman 2.0 is in any way exciting or a new Robin origin is a story worth telling.
    I completely agree with this, I don’t want any of that.
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  15. #120
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark-Flux View Post
    You can agonies over the specifics of a reboot again and again but it's only ever gonna be a temporary fix no matter how its handled. Continuity issues arise, the mythos gets more dense. New readers are confused on where to start or intimidated by 5+ years of stories and old readers lament all the development lost in a constant cycle of reboots. Not to mention its just boring to undo a bunch of stuff and then build back up to a retelling - acting like the Death of Superman 2.0 is in any way exciting or a new Robin origin is a story worth telling.
    While I agree that overall the negatives of a reboot probably outweigh the positives, who says the bolded has to happen?
    Death is cheap and we all know Superman would just come back, there is no reason to rehash that in a new continuity. We didn't have that story in the pre-COIE continuities and his story wrapped up without it, why would a new continuity be obligated to re-tell it?

    For Robin's origin...we don't really need it. Just take the BTAS approach and have Robin be there already, albeit still on the younger side. We all know the origins there is no need to re-hash it in excruciating detail.

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