Wishes for a Reboot..

[Buried Alien]

When I was a kid first getting into comics, fifteen years seemed like an impossibly long time. An eon. I'm forty-seven now, and fifteen years ago (when I was thirty-two) feels like it was just last week. Unbelievably, fourteen years have already passed since Jason Todd returned from the dead as the Red Hood. To me, Jason's return still feels very recent, but it's already nearly three times the length of his entire tenure as the second Robin during the 1980s.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[SiegePerilous02]

A reboot is a SIGNAL to get rid of whoever the heck I want and REWRITE history and PANDER to whoever I want.

If you are starting from ground zero-TIME has to go by for a LOT of folks before they show up.

Oh lets not forget-Tim Drake, Cassandra Cain & Duke & Aqualad & Wallace West are TEENAGERS. Dick Grayson has to have time to be Robin and later Nightwing. Same with the Fab 5. Oh not to mention Damian and his crew.

You have 6 generations of heroes. You going to introduce them all in less than a year or risk losing more fans?

John Stewart fans will be DAMN if they are going to buy a GL book with the claim John is Hal's co-lead. They have done that dance before the last 10+ years.

And honestly NOBODY cares about the introductions-folks care about those guys doing more than be death fodder, background cameos, bed warmers for white guys, ABC after school special projects or PETS for Batman & Damian.

And once again with these debates, way to miss:

1. Me saying not rebooting at all is the way to go. But if it has to happen, of course starting at ground zero has to happen because otherwise you get an unsatisfying mess. See the New 52 and COIE before it. Hell, the beloved post-Crisis canon with all the legacy was built on corpses like Kara and Barry's and made sweeping (you guessed it) rewrites. This is fairly straightforward, and if people want a reboot, it's how it should be done. There's no middle ground here, or shouldn't be.

2. You sidestepped all the characters I mentioned that wouldn't have to wait around for generations to pass to be introduced because they are already in the same age group as the main heroes. See John Henry in the New 52, who was introduced immediately despite not appearing until the 90s. Just because he showed up post-Nighgtwing before doesn't mean it has to be that way in a new universe. Why do you think anyone is advocating for such a thing? I've seen you mention before that Harley Quinn would have to wait, but obviously she wouldn't if the DCAU (where she originated) is anything to go by. Guess which Robin (and which Batgirl) was interacting with her there?

3. No you are not going to introduce six generations in such a short time frame. You would be stuck with the main one and Dick's as the only sidekicks. If you are streamlining things down and starting a fresh continuity, you have to by necessity. See point 1. If they don't want to risk losing fans, don't do it. Simple as that. But don't pussyfoot around if there is going to be a reboot, because then you have all these characters squeezed into a smaller timeline without their histories, and that is INCREDIBLY unsatisfying middle ground. Like all the Robins in a 5 year timeline. Dick as the only Robin is preferable to that, I don't see how it couldn't be.

And yeah, I'm personally fine with all those legacies being ditched. The main difference between me and DiDio is he's targeting a different generation :P No fan with such biases should be in charge, but even with that of course a rebooted clean slate that is boiling down the main characters to the bare essentials isn't going to bog them down with later additions that aren't totally necessary. Common sense. And if we're rebooting Batman...sorry, a Robin is essential, but all of them? Hardly.

4. Maybe DC can put their money where their mouth is and actually make Hal and John co-leads, or if the franchise is healthy enough give him his own solo. Or do what they are doing now, give Hal the GL book and give John the JL spot. But Hal is the lead the way Clark, Bruce and Diana are.

5. Thoughts on the civilian/supporting characters? Because it's not as if DC needs a reboot as an excuse to make them background fodder. And what does "Batman and Damian's PETS" mean?

[Thor-Ul]

Why use a massive reboot? You could use other methods like, parallel miniseries retconing what you need to explain.

[superduperman]

IF you're going to do it, there are a few things that you would need to do to make it work.

1) No connections to previous continuity. That means no "Crisis" to get it going. Treat it like a movie franchise. The previous versions simply never existed. The Toby Macguire Spider Man doesn't exist anymore. Now it's Tom Holland. That's how you have to approach it. There is no "pre-" version to return to. This may mean ending the previous continuity altogether and giving everyone a "happy ending".

2) Tight continuity. Much as I had my issues with DC in the 1990s, I can't deny they ran a pretty tight ship continuity-wise. At least as far as characters like Superman and Batman go. No more letting creators do their own thing. This might scare some people off but it is necessary to make this work.

3) People like Didio need to be put on a leash. The DCU is not your own personal fan fiction. People like Dick Grayson and Wally West. You don't get to kill them off just because you personally don't like them. If you can't handle that, then step down and let someone else run things who can. This "people will change their minds once they see what I have in mind!" mindset is wrong.

4) Don't try to re-invent the wheel. It's okay to experiment a little bit but let's not do things you know will run fans off. I think one of the things that killed New 52 was the SM/WW relationship. The idea that Superman wasn't going to end up with Lois was too off putting for most people.

5) No more line wide crossovers or big "event" books that require you to buy every title just to follow a story. Comics are getting up to $5 a book these days. Most people can't afford to buy ten books a month just to follow one story. This is another thing that killed New 52.

6) And most importantly: LISTEN TO FANS! If they tell you they want something, listen to them. If they tell you they don't like something, listen to them. No, they won't change their mind later. See #3. The DCU is not your own personal fan fiction. Yes, you should reach out to new markets and changing demographics. But there are ways of doing that without replacing a major character with a new one.

Now for the elephant in the room. I counted it up and Superman has had something like five different origins in the last 20 years alone. So here are my suggestions for a permanent one based on a very UN-scientific poll: The "S" should be a Kryptonian symbol. Most fans agree with this concept. He should have some powers from day one, like strength and invulnerability, and others come along later during puberty, like flight and the vision powers. He should be a member of the Legion, but only be a costumed Superboy in the future. He can help people in secret around Smallville. His public debut should be as SuperMAN in Metropolis. And, yes, he should be married to Lois. The general consensus, as near as I can tell, is that the Kents should still be alive well into his career as Superman.

These are just some of my suggestions for how to make a hard reboot work. Feel free to add your own contributions. Or make any corrections if you feel I'm wrong about something.

[Factor]

I don't think another full reboot would work. I'd like them to try and integrate as much from past eras as possible.
They make a buck out of selling classic trades, so why continue to neuter those stories' importance to the current books?
I think they should try as much as possible to make runs like Wolfman and Perez's NTT, Byrne's Superman, Johns's JSA, Ostrander's Suicide Squad, Levitz and Giffen's Legion etc all canon again.
Those runs (and many others) are DC's solid ground. Take that away and you risk the mediocrity that plagued the New 52.

[king81992]

I don't think another full reboot would work. I'd like them to try and integrate as much from past eras as possible.
They make a buck out of selling classic trades, so why continue to neuter those stories' importance to the current books?
I think they should try as much as possible to make runs like Wolfman and Perez's NTT, Byrne's Superman, Johns's JSA, Ostrander's Suicide Squad, Levitz and Giffen's Legion etc all canon again.
Those runs (and many others) are DC's solid ground. Take that away and you risk the mediocrity that plagued the New 52.

Trying to mimic past successful runs has doomed certain franchises to repetitive storylines and mediorcrity. The next great run isn't going to exist by doing what was done before.

[Factor]

Trying to mimic past successful runs has doomed certain franchises to repetitive storylines and mediorcrity. The next great run isn't going to exist by doing what was done before.

I think you misread my post. I was not talking about mimicking those stories. I meant they need to be made canon again so the DCU has a stronger basis to build on. I have no interest in reading a retelling of past stories and I don't think that would be needed.

[byrd156]

Reboots aren't the magic key solution to everything.

People were unhappy with the direction of the original DC universe with things like Identity Crisis, Cry for Justice, etc. so they rebooted with New 52. People didn't like that so they did a soft reboot with Rebirth. People now have issues with that. The common factor? The same people were in charge over all of those changes.

Reboots don't work if the same people that "messed it up" to begin with are still in charge over the new stuff. The only actual change you'll ever see in the company's direction is if the upper staff changes.

Exactly this. They can reboot again and nothing will change unless it's a new staff heading the reboot.

[byrd156]

No, it would matter. One of the things that draw readers to DC and Marvel is that their universes are so long-running and have such a storied history behind them. When people talk about Superman or Spider-Man or Batman or any comic book character, one of the first things they reference is their famous stories and what they've been through as characters. How many times has the Death of Gwen Stacy been referenced by not just the Spider-Man comics, but by outside media as well? Same thing for the Death of Superman and coming of Doomsday or for Bane snapping Batman's back or the death of Jason Todd? Or how about the discovery of Captain America in the ice? The death of the Graysons? The death of Barry Allen? Destruction of Coast City and Hal Jordan becoming Parallax? Batman #244 and the first appearance of Ra's al Ghul? Secret Wars and the introduction of Venom, first as Spider-Man's costume and then bonded to Eddie Brock? The Dark Phoenix Saga? The resurrection of Bucky Barnes? Superman revealing his identity to Lois and them ultimately getting married? Cosmic Odyssey and the death of Xanshi? The Judas Contract? The coming of Galactus on Earth?

I could go on and on and on.

That's why comics are referred to as the modern American mythology. Mythology, by definition, requires a sustained narrative whereby at least a few key stories are passed down from generation to generation. That's what people in favor of reboots don't get. If you do a full scale clean reboot, then you lose a lot of what makes comics, at least DC and Marvel, mythological. Heck, even Crisis knew well enough to leave a lot of stuff intact. I didn't see Barry Allen running around after COIE wrapped up.

I agree with the mythological aspect 100%. But I disagree that a hard reboot would ruin that, what ruins it are half assed reboots that muddle everything up with inferior storytelling and less than stellar effort put into the characters and universe.

Roman mythology is pretty much a reboot/retelling of Greek mythology.

If DC committed to a full on reboot with top talent, good promotion and consistency I think a reboot would be a welcomed sight. But then again that would never happen.

[Buried Alien]

Exactly this. They can reboot again and nothing will change unless it's a new staff heading the reboot.

There is some truth to this. One reason that the Post-COIE reboot (kind of) worked was because with that reboot also came a mass, generational changing of the guard among the DC staff. Out with Julie Schwartz and Curt Swan; in with John Byrne.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[byrd156]

There is some truth to this. One reason that the Post-COIE reboot (kind of) worked was because with that reboot also came a mass, generational changing of the guard among the DC staff. Out with Julie Schwartz and Curt Swan; in with John Byrne.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Creators make these stories, stories only change when they do. Whether it's mandates or assignments from editors or completely different people are used.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I'd probably transition 70% of the legacy characters into different identities just to see if that might help them stand out/retain an audience on their own. This is probably easier to do with the adults than the kids as the adults are more likely to have their own lives/themes sperate from the original. Most of the profitable minority leads are tied up in legacy roles so uncoupling them is key.

I rather do a full reboot or don't bother. Not sure what I'd do with the silver agers or the sidekicks. I rather just have Dick's generation take over but that's just me.

[Stick Figure]

I’ve always wanted to see characters replaced by a new generation. That’s you’re reboot. In time, you’d have a completely fresh universe.

Face it, it’s tough to make comics when fans have been reading the book oks for a decade or more. I’m sure it was much easier when the audience was younger and there was turnover.

[SiegePerilous02]

I agree with the mythological aspect 100%. But I disagree that a hard reboot would ruin that, what ruins it are half assed reboots that muddle everything up with inferior storytelling and less than stellar effort put into the characters and universe.

Roman mythology is pretty much a reboot/retelling of Greek mythology.

If DC committed to a full on reboot with top talent, good promotion and consistency I think a reboot would be a welcomed sight. But then again that would never happen.

Yeah, new talent would be needed. Maybe some of the same writers, I absolutely would not say no to Morrison or Johns on certain properties.

DiDio absolutely should have no part in it though. Because logically the Teen Titans generation in this hypothetical scenario would be Dick and co, and we cannot trust him to do right by them.

[Masterff]

Again, who decides what is crucial? Who decides what the milestones are? You ask a hundred different readers you'll get a hundred different lists, and sure many of the same stories will pop up, but even on the points everyone agrees on people will debate which version of Superman's origin story was the best. Hell, I prefer Zero Year over Year One for Batman origins. And again, not everyone will agree what the true milestones are. This is what fanboy debates are all about. Basically you just want to cherrypick your favorite stories, which is perfectly fine, but you have to know that ultimately a lot of it will boil down to your opinions and preferences.

NOT TRUE!!

Again just look at these here:
http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/up...poilers-4B.jpg

And MILESTONES are EASY:

Which retelling of the origin do you want?
You know how many people hate that story and want to retcon or ignore it? (One of my personal favorites though.)
You know how many people argue you could redo Batman's history and skip over Tim Drake's Robin? (Shame, he's my favorite Robin.)
Do you want to include the whole ambassador Joker thing there in the death? How about the resurrection, Lazarus Pit or Superboy-Prime punch?
Many fans argue he shouldn't even have an origin. Personally I enjoy the various Red Hood origins for him.

See my point?

Look at this picture:
http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/up...poilers-4B.jpg

THIS IS WHAT I WANT!!
You work with Flashbacks like in this picture, you DONT NEED DETAILS, YOU DONT NEED SPECIFIC STORIES ETC. ETC. ETC.


You simply make a book and then let Bruce sit in a chair and think back at his life so far:

-His Parents get shot
-He trains and becomes Batman
-He meets Red Hood who becomes Joker
-He goes to Circus adopts Dick
-Dick gets Nightwing
-Jason gets Robin and dies and comes back
-Killing Joke
-Knightfall
-other Robins showing up

In this way you can leave the details etc. ambigous:
Bruce Wayne becomes Batman is fact, but how you can leave uncertain etc. this are details which dont really matter..
It really DOESNT matter for 99% of the stories if Zeus,Superman,Wonder Woman,a speaking rabbit has trained him...

Tim Drake for example is nearly everyday around him,so you MUST give him a history...

THATS IT....Look at the Superman Picture, did he explain in 1.000.000.000 Pictures everything?? No!!!

And speaking about Joker, I was only talking about the ACE chemistry incident!! and his Time as Red Hood..

AND ANOTHER TIME!! I am REDOING history YES, BUT! only in the way to connect the Events, I am NOT neccessarily deleting characters etc.
Like with JONATHAN SAMUEL KENT and CONNER KENT, I am NOT!! deleting one of them, but reconstructing the Events in such a way, that Jonathan Samuel Kent is born maybe a year after "Reign of Supermen" and so the 2 know each other etc.

So I do in a way that the NEW52,the REBIRTH and the PRE-FLASHPOINT characters can exist in...

Yes some characters and storylines like NEW Krypton and Chris Kent I would delete BECAUSE if they have JONATHAN SAMUEL KENT, then there would be no need for CHRIS KENT...

I don't know about that. When it comes to Batman, I'd also say that Batman #244 and Ra's al Ghul's first appearance, A Lonely Place of Dying, the debuts of Renee Montoya, Stephanie Brown as Spoiler, Cassandra Cain, and Kate Kane Batwoman, No Man's Land and the death of Sarah Essen, Cassandra Cain Batgirl, Hush, Final Crisis and the "death" of Bruce Wayne, Dick's time as Batman with Damian as his Robin, Stephanie Brown Batgirl, etc. are all crucial in the Batman mythos.

Not really crucial things...

Crucial is:

-His Parents get shot
-He trains and becomes Batman
-He meets Red Hood who becomes Joker
-He goes to Circus adopts Dick
-Dick gets Nightwing
-Jason gets Robin and dies and comes back
-Killing Joke
-Knightfall
-other Robins showing up

THESE are the MILESTONES and CRUCIAL POINTS....
These are points which brought up characters with who you write your DAILY stories...

Hush for example is a nice story, but not really crucial as it doesnt have effects on TODAY...

You just take this Crucial Points which I listed above AND leave the REST ambigous....