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  1. #1
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    Default Why so many NEW Batfamily members? and Harpers actual status..

    Hello,
    could someone tell me why they brought up so many new Batfamily Members?

    I personally am not a big fan of Batwing,Signal....Azrael was cool once, but with the new Outfit he doesnt look so great like with the Batsuit..

    I was more a fan of the small Bat-Family,but I liked Harper as addition, what is her role at the moment?

  2. #2
    Fantastic Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Harper has no role at the moment. She's not part of the family, nor is she an active hero.

    As for the new additions, I actually don't mind the big extended family. Especially since none of them really intrude on the main fam...well...except for Signal, who is still desperately trying to be relevant.

  3. #3
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Every writer these days wants to add their character to the Batman mythos, and it is easier to get over a new hero/sidekick than a villain. Once a sidekick is heavily promoted, it is harder to write them out. Also, fans get so attached so quickly these days, that again, it makes it harder to write them out. A villain can just never be seen again.

    This isn't really anything new exactly, but the rate has massively increased since the 90s.

    Harper quit the hero scene at the end of Batman & Robin Eternal. I think she now works at a homeless shelter or something? Apparently, we were going to get her as Nightwing back when Grayson was launched, but it never happened.

    Batwing was never meant to be another Gotham vigilante, but DC editorial made the decision to keep the "Iron-Bat" part and remove everything that made him interesting.

    Signal was Scott Snyder's great project, but I feel he waited far too long to pull the trigger. I'd lost interest before Batman & Signal FINALLY released. He is now in Batman and the Outsiders.

    I miss Orpheus. There was a character with potential, and he wasn't another kid sidekick.
    Just. Be. Nice.

  4. #4
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    I personally MISS Harper and could live WITHOUT Signal,Batwing....

    Harper was great, because she added some Punk-Flair,looked great in the tuxedo,was funny and became also good friends with Cassandra Cain and was able to keep a relationship with her even Cass murdered her mother...she added more variation to the team than Batwing,Signal etc.

  5. #5
    Fantastic Member Blue22's Avatar
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    I like Batwing. But I'd gladly trade all the other branch family members to get Harper back.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    Every writer these days wants to add their character to the Batman mythos, and it is easier to get over a new hero/sidekick than a villain. Once a sidekick is heavily promoted, it is harder to write them out. Also, fans get so attached so quickly these days, that again, it makes it harder to write them out. A villain can just never be seen again.
    Really?

    I don't understand how that is.

    New villains are the lifeblood of Batman comics.

    I will buy a comic because of a villain's cameo appearance (e.g. The Eraser in the Detective Annual; I have almost zero interest in Batman himself).

    DC needs more villains and less heroes.

  7. #7
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    new villains are really not that common today anymore, especially in the main Batman book, while the ones from the secondary books rarely stick.

    With the new addition to the Batfamily, I think if they want them to stick, they must be more carefull when creating them. They shouldn't add one if they have still another one around who is still not really established, and the ones they add should really bring something new to the table, and they really need to take their time to establish the relation between them and the established characters. I find it for example wired how they write Duke when he is together with Jason of Cass at the moment since we never really sow them get to know each other.

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    At the same time, there is no fault in using a new villain only once, or have no intention to use later on. At the same time, even jokes like Condiment Man can be good things to return to later with the right intent.

    I'm not sure how DC's incentives for writers and editors, but there should really be more focus on creating good stories rather than creating good characters. The Killing Joke is one of the most successful and influential Batman story ever, and it uses little but the long-established core cast of Batman, Joker, commissioner Gordon, and Babs. If the good story requires a new character, then fine, but the story should come first.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  9. #9
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    new villains are really not that common today anymore, especially in the main Batman book, while the ones from the secondary books rarely stick.

    With the new addition to the Batfamily, I think if they want them to stick, they must be more carefull when creating them. They shouldn't add one if they have still another one around who is still not really established, and the ones they add should really bring something new to the table, and they really need to take their time to establish the relation between them and the established characters. I find it for example wired how they write Duke when he is together with Jason of Cass at the moment since we never really sow them get to know each other.
    What? New villains are still plenty common. Batman Who Laughs being the most recent stand out new Bat villain.

    When it comes to new Bat family members, first they need to not take for granted the ones they have. Batman and Robin Eternal is a prime example of that. The suckered people in with Batman and Robin but instead gave them Harper and Cass. Who went on to do jack, while the characters people were suckered in for just got buried in it. Harper never had a chance. She became the focal point for Batfamily fans resentment. And it wasn’t her fault, but the writers behind her and the narrow minded outdated ways they used to try and get her over.

    Your on to something though about the relationships between the new ones and the establish ones. Look at Damian. It wasn’t till they paired him with Dick and built thier relationship together that he started to get over.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 06-05-2019 at 07:19 AM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    What? New villains are still plenty common. Batman Who Laughs being the most recent stand out new Bat villain.
    More a justice league villain, he has not really appeared in the Batman books sofar.

    In the main Batman book, the only really new villains we had sofar since the reboot were iirc the Court of Owls, Mr. Bloom and Gotham Girl (if you want to count her).

    There were new villains in books like TEC and "Batman and Robin" but most of them didn't really got enough focus to make them interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    When it comes to new Bat family members, first they need to not take for granted the ones they have. Batman and Robin Eternal is a prime example of that. The suckered people in with Batman and Robin but instead gave them Harper and Cass. Who went on to do jack, while the characters people were suckered in for just got buried in it. Harper never had a chance. She became the focal point for Batfamily fans resentment. And it wasn’t her fault, but the writers behind her and the narrow minded outdated ways they used to try and get her over.
    B&R and B&RE is really a good example for how it went wrong, they tried to make Harper the new big thing and reintroduced Steph and Cass, before they had really sorted out the post rebirth relations of the Batfamily, had established their relation with the characters they had already introduced at that point (Batwoman, Batwing, Talon ...) and on top of this they introduced Duke around the same time in the main batman book.

    That was just way to much at the same time.
    Last edited by Aahz; 06-05-2019 at 07:58 AM.

  11. #11
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    He has a Batman book going on right now. This main Batman book criteria is just splitting hairs.

  12. #12
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    Really?

    I don't understand how that is.

    New villains are the lifeblood of Batman comics.

    I will buy a comic because of a villain's cameo appearance (e.g. The Eraser in the Detective Annual; I have almost zero interest in Batman himself).

    DC needs more villains and less heroes.
    I'd ask how an obscure z-list character like The Eraser got you to buy a Batman book you otherwise had no interest in, but I feel that's an interesting chat for another time. Killer Moth is legit in my top-5 Batman enemies, and I do love a weird, wonderful and/or obscure villlain.

    Anyway, by the same token, someone with no interest in Batman will buy a book for Tim, or Steph or Cass, or Duke, and because you get that character's perspective (which you rarely do with a villain), people become more attached than they would if, say, Hush were to appear. Then you can spin off their own book, and after that ends, fans are more likely to pick up book with their appearance. I feel this is why more recent writers are trying to get their own hero into the Bat-family (this goes for GCPD cops, to a lesser degree).

    A Joker appearance will push up sales on a book, I'm sure several of the big names do, too. But I'm pretty sure few people specifically picked up a book for The First Victim (and I loved this character), but might have because Clayface was in the same book (and then Cass, Tim, etc).

    I'm absolutely not disagreeing, I am 100% of the idea that we do not need any new Bat-family members but desperately need INTERESTING new villains. Or at least re-vamp an old one that's currently in limbo.

    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    At the same time, there is no fault in using a new villain only once, or have no intention to use later on. At the same time, even jokes like Condiment Man can be good things to return to later with the right intent.
    Absolutely, as I say, I really liked The First Victim but don't necessarily need to see the character again.
    Just. Be. Nice.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by scary harpy View Post
    Really?

    I don't understand how that is.

    New villains are the lifeblood of Batman comics.

    I will buy a comic because of a villain's cameo appearance (e.g. The Eraser in the Detective Annual; I have almost zero interest in Batman himself).

    DC needs more villains and less heroes.
    A single hero has at least ten villains in their rogues gallery. DC is not lacking in villains and each new hero they create that gets a solo means more villains.

  14. #14
    Also goes by Westbats Westbats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    Hello,
    could someone tell me why they brought up so many new Batfamily Members?

    I personally am not a big fan of Batwing,Signal....Azrael was cool once, but with the new Outfit he doesnt look so great like with the Batsuit..

    I was more a fan of the small Bat-Family,but I liked Harper as addition, what is her role at the moment?
    Harper's latest appearance in comics was in Detective Comics 964, while she has cameoed in the animated Young Justice: Outsiders series. She's attending Gotham University for a proper Electrical Engineering degree, and volunteering at Leslie Thompkins' clinic.

    With Cassandra's involvement in Batman and The Outsiders there is a possibility of her showing up in the future. Similarly, Greg Capullo released images of upcoming pages of Batman: Last Knight on Earth that show a character who has a striking resemblance to Harper.
    I am currently reading Batman, Detective Comics, Nightwing, Batgirl, Catwoman, Heroes in Crisis, Justice League, The Batman Who Laughs, Doomsday Clock, Sideways, Ms. Marvel, and Thor.

    In time I hope to read Red Hood and The Outlaws, Batman and The Outsiders, and Young Justice.

  15. #15
    Incredible Member Ishmael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    Every writer these days wants to add their character to the Batman mythos ...
    This.

    Talon is the only recent addition to the mythos that I can think of whose been virtually forgotten. But it seems clear writers want to "make their contribution" and the easiest way to do that is add a new character to the family.

    It's a bit much imo. As much as Didio seems to question the relevance of Dick Grayson, it seems that issue exists a hundred fold for all the sidekick-type characters they've added since the 90s. It's almost ridiculous at this point.
    Last edited by Ishmael; 06-05-2019 at 09:01 PM.

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