Why so many NEW Batfamily members? and Harpers actual status..

[Aahz]

I mean why would you expect Robin batman's official sidekick to have equal feature with a character that wasn't his sidekick. Why would you expect RR to be have time next to Batman?

I'm not taking about equal feature, I'm taling about some feautre at all.
Since Flashpoint Tim didn't really have a team up with Bruce or Dick out side of big Batman events or the team book the was Tynions run in TEC.


Tim should not team up with Batman frequently, but not once in now almost 8 years? We are talking here after all about a character who was Robin for close to 20 years and has around 200 solo issues (and probably a similar number of issues in team books) under his belt. I think a character like this would deserve a little bit more attention by the Batman writers.

Tim didn't even got a wedding issue like all the other Robins and Barbara. I mean even Harley got one.

[Godlike13]

Why do Bat events and a ‘Tec run all of a sudden not count?

[Restingvoice]

Why do Bat events and a ‘Tec run all of a sudden not count?

The Bat events mean that Tim is only there for work purpose, not family reasons. In Post Crisis, they're more blended, mixing work time with family banters that made the Batfam feel more, well, family, with characters crossing over more often to drop by, hang out, and solve a crime. Tim and Dick used to feel like brothers, now they rarely interact.

I don't remember how much of a family they feel in the Tec run... well, Tim was dead/missing during half of it... I remember Bruce and Tim being closer than in New 52, but I don't know if it can satisfy people that miss the family relation during the Post Crisis era...

[Godlike13]

Dick upgraded, and Tim found Jason. He even became Robin to honor Jason.

[dietrich]

I'm not taking about equal feature, I'm taling about some feautre at all.
Since Flashpoint Tim didn't really have a team up with Bruce or Dick out side of big Batman events or the team book the was Tynions run in TEC.


Tim should not team up with Batman frequently, but not once in now almost 8 years? We are talking here after all about a character who was Robin for close to 20 years and has around 200 solo issues (and probably a similar number of issues in team books) under his belt. I think a character like this would deserve a little bit more attention by the Batman writers.

Tim didn't even got a wedding issue like all the other Robins and Barbara. I mean even Harley got one.

My guess is tim wasn't around when the wedding issues were taking place also why Tim doesn't get featured in any of the issues in the run up to 50 and why tynion didn't mention anything about the couple. it's taking place at different times.

A regular spot in Tec and bat events are plenty. Tim has contributed a lot but you can't force writers to change their stories to accommodate him.

He didn't fit into Tomasi's or Synder's narrative [and at the time he was in use elsewhere] and he doesn't fit King's. That is fine and fair enough just like Damian didn't fit into Synder's, King's or Tynion's and that is fine.

[Aahz]

Why do Bat events and a ‘Tec run all of a sudden not count?

Because I was talking about team ups of two characters (that's usually were the writers can really explore their relation), not of teams.
In the Batevents Tim is usually only one in a team of many characters, and I can't really think of an event where Tim really was one of the main protagonists.

And TEC also didn't really had a team up like this as far as I can remember, and Bruce also interacted that much with as far as I can remember.

What I mean really something along the lines of the team up Damain just had with Bruce in TEC or the one he had with Dick in the "Nightwing Must Die!".

Or when we take Jason as example the Annual he and Dick where looking for KGBeast in the circus, or his freqent interactions with Bruce in RHatO (thinking about it he and Bruce didn't really have a team up to solve a case, but the have at least more personal interaction than Bruce and Tim).

[Godlike13]

Tim and Jason were best of buds with the New 52, he became Red Robin to honor Jason even, and Tec so did have Bruce one on one interactions with Tim. It even had him crying over him and what have you. Tim had a residence with Bruce. They shared a book together. That far outweighs 5 pages of a guest appearance. But that doesn’t count. Come on, that’s silly.

[Restingvoice]

Dick upgraded, and Tim found Jason. He even became Robin to honor Jason.

What do you mean by upgraded?

About Jason, yeah well... that's the thing, not talking about Aahz coz I don't know, some fans I've seen don't want Dick to be replaced by Jason. They want what they used to have to be continued, not replaced, especially since the Batfam story in their broad stroke still continue from previous continuity.

So right before reboot that they say doesn't affect the Batfam that much, Tim still views Dick as a brother he trusts with his life without having to tell him where he is or what he's doing (Red Robin Ra's al Ghul arc), but post Reboot he suddenly gravitates towards Jason. Meanwhile, Dick and Damian and Bruce continue their dynamic as usual. That's weird.

There are a lot of fans who LOVE Jason and Tim Post New 52 dynamic though.

[CPSparkles]

What do you mean by upgraded?

About Jason, yeah well... that's the thing, not talking about Aahz coz I don't know, some fans I've seen don't want Dick to be replaced by Jason. They want what they used to have to be continued, not replaced, especially since the Batfam story in their broad stroke still continue from previous continuity.

So right before reboot that they say doesn't affect the Batfam that much, Tim still views Dick as a brother he trusts with his life without having to tell him where he is or what he's doing (Red Robin Ra's al Ghul arc), but post Reboot he suddenly gravitates towards Jason. Meanwhile, Dick and Damian and Bruce continue their dynamic as usual. That's weird.

There are a lot of fans who LOVE Jason and Tim Post New 52 dynamic though.

The thing is that fans want things they are used to but these characters and their histories have changed. Tim especially is in a strange place. How can he view Dick as his brother when he doesn't have that history with Dick? The RR Ra's al Ghul arc never happened. This Tim and Dick have a different history. Writers understand and seem to stick to that but Fans don't seem to.

We need to remind ourselves of the current status quo.

Dick, Damian and Bruce have carried their history forward. Nothing weird about that. Fans just have to remember that just like we remember that.

[dietrich]

The thing is that fans want things they are used to but these characters and their histories have changed. Tim especially is in a strange place. How can he view Dick as his brother when he doesn't have that history with Dick? The RR Ra's al Ghul arc never happened. This Tim and Dick have a different history. Writers understand and seem to stick to that but Fans don't seem to.

We need to remind ourselves of the current status quo.

Dick, Damian and Bruce have carried their history forward. Nothing weird about that. Fans just have to remember that just like we remember that.

People tend to remember the parts they like and ignore the parts they dislike.

Tim getting his origin back is remembered yet Tim not knowing Dick that long is forgotten despite the fact that both were revealed in the same story in the same issue on the same damn page.

Fans have selective memories.

[Restingvoice]

The thing is that fans want things they are used to but these characters and their histories have changed. Tim especially is in a strange place. How can he view Dick as his brother when he doesn't have that history with Dick? The RR Ra's al Ghul arc never happened. This Tim and Dick have a different history. Writers understand and seem to stick to that but Fans don't seem to.

We need to remind ourselves of the current status quo.

Dick, Damian and Bruce have carried their history forward. Nothing weird about that. Fans just have to remember that just like we remember that.

They don't want the new status quo. Just like how I reject Ric Grayson because it's a result of executive meddling, they don't want Tim's new history because it's a result of editorial meddling or unneeded partial reboot. Especially since one relationship is intact and one is changed. It's kinda like, why should that one changed? Why can't all be the same?

Edit, I'm talking about before his backstory was returned. That said, even after the back story is returned, the old interaction they want hasn't happened yet because Tim left the Batfam not long after. They just got happily distracted with Young Justice.

[Swallowtail]

People tend to remember the parts they like and ignore the parts they dislike.

Tim getting his origin back is remembered yet Tim not knowing Dick that long is forgotten despite the fact that both were revealed in the same story in the same issue on the same damn page.

Fans have selective memories.

You're kind of expecting fans to pick one very small part of the nonsense timeline and say 'this, this one obliquely referenced bit that supports the somewhat
unpopular theory I'm trying get traction on is right'. That's equally hella selective. Every other stupid, nonsensical timeline decision they have to ignore - Harley's been around for 20 years, sure. Duke's still only 16, okay- for an argument they have no investment in.

If I accept that Tim started right after Jason died, and in order to fit the timeline Damian came on the scene just a year or less later, I have to accept that Knightfall and No Man's land didn't happen. That Barbara spent little to no time as Oracle. I have to accept that they thought Jason was dead for less than six months and that he was Under the Red Hood at like 16. If I like those stories what motivation do I have to accept all that doublethink unless I really strongly want to argue that Tim and Dick aren't brothers anymore? Or alternatively why can't I just fit it into my head-canon that the maybe less disruptive option is to accept from Rebirth on that Damian arrived on the scene at 12 and only one year has passed for him? Nobody else seems to have aged and I don't ever remember him turning either 11 or 12 in the comics. So that's the option that's potentially less disruptive to the overall Batfamily timeline, because it only messes up Damian's timeline and not Tim, Bruce, Jason, Barbara's etc.

[dietrich]

You're kind of expecting fans to pick one very small part of the nonsense timeline and say 'this, this one obliquely referenced bit that supports the somewhat
unpopular theory I'm trying get traction on is right'. That's equally hella selective. Every other stupid, nonsensical timeline decision they have to ignore - Harley's been around for 20 years, sure. Duke's still only 16, okay- for an argument they have no investment in.

If I accept that Tim started right after Jason died, and in order to fit the timeline Damian came on the scene just a year or less later, I have to accept that Knightfall and No Man's land didn't happen. That Barbara spent little to no time as Oracle. I have to accept that they thought Jason was dead for less than six months and that he was Under the Red Hood at like 16. If I like those stories what motivation do I have to accept all that doublethink unless I really strongly want to argue that Tim and Dick aren't brothers anymore? Or alternatively why can't I just fit it into my head-canon that the maybe less disruptive option is to accept from Rebirth on that Damian arrived on the scene at 12 and only one year has passed for him? Nobody else seems to have aged and I don't ever remember him turning either 11 or 12 in the comics. So that's the option that's potentially less disruptive to the overall Batfamily timeline, because it only messes up Damian's timeline and not Tim, Bruce, Jason, Barbara's etc.

Nothing stops you from making up and believing your head canon. Lots of people do. But it's just that Your head canon and not DC Canon. DC canon currently states that Damian became robin at age 10 and is currently 13. In that time
Bruce was presumed dead
Dick and Damian were batman and robin,
Bruce and Dick shared batman duty
Dick went back to Nightwing and Damian started working with Bruce
Damian died
Dick died was brought back and went undercover as agent 37
Damian was brought back to life
Bruce lost his memory and Gordon took the mantle
Damian went around the world atoning for his sins
Duke led the WAR kids
Bruce got his memory back
Bruce trained and worked with Duke long enough for him to become an independent hero
Bruce and Kate trained Tim, Cass, Steph etc
Bruce got engaged and all the events of rebirth happened.

Just like DC I'm more than willing to go with the more disruptive option but you do you only HC isn't real canon.

Fyi I 'd say that Tim age down is more disruptive than Damian's age up. Tim only being 16 and starting at age 13 is more disruptive if we are being objective.

[Swallowtail]

Fyi I 'd say that Tim age down is more disruptive than Damian's age up. Tim only being 16 and starting at age 13 is more disruptive if we are being objective.

Yeah, agreed they should let him age.

But honestly right at the moment the official Batman timeline actually goes like this.

Batman has been operating for 5 years
(No wait Dr Manhattan)
Batman has been operating for 10 years
(No wait he's been operating since before 20 year old Astrid Arkham was born)
Batman has been operating in Gotham for 20 years.
(No wait he met Duke the first year he was Batman and Duke is only 16 and that would make him too old because Batman cannot be over 40, editorial hyperventilates)
Batman has been operating in Gotham for 10+/- 10 years. He met Selina on a boat boat but also on the street.

Rebirth references have stuck Knightfall and No Man's Land back in Canon. That's two years to fit in during Tim's tenure.

Damian has aged three years, but Damian has also celebrated eight Christmases in Gotham and only one Birthday.

Trying to argue anything is canon based on the current timeline is like trying to build a shopping mall on quicksand. The Gap is never going to be where you left it.

So in terms of narrative sense yeah, head canons are really all we got. Tim being only Robin for six months is yours, but it has no more stated in canon than my plus or minus 10 years thing. You've just worked it out from the selection of stupid, nonsensical numbers they throw at us that most fits your argument about Tim. Or are you really saying James "Tim-fan" Tynion's intention was to minimise Tim's importance to the canon?

[Tzigone]

Fyi I 'd say that Tim age down is more disruptive than Damian's age up. Tim only being 16 and starting at age 13 is more disruptive if we are being objective.

I actually think the worst was putting Jason and Dick so close in age (DC has been trying to keep Dick younger to keep Bruce younger for a long time, no matter how little sense it made). So Dick was 16 when he started. And not Robin for very long. And many of us didn't like it. Don't know how writers felt about it, but it got reversed, and Dick is back to being a child when his parents died. Of course, that should have knock-on effects, particularly in his relationships to Alfred and Bruce, but it doesn't, really. Ric being part of that, of course.

Christmases and other holiday issues (and even seasons passing) must always be ignored. To otherwise invites insanity. Of course, repeatedly killing Santa as DC is wont to do also muddies things if you take it into account.