Why so many NEW Batfamily members? and Harpers actual status..

[Aahz]

How long do these characters have to exist before they are established?

It is not so much the time, but also how much and where they appear and if they really feel like a relevant part of the Batfamily dynamik and have a decently sized fanbase.
I mean Kathy and Betty Kane are around forever, but I still wouldn't really count them as "established".

I think Duke could kind of make the jump to an "established" member, if they keep using him as part of the family (which is something hey are not really doing with Luke and JPV imo) and actually keep his personality and direction consistent.

And I think Harper would have had a chance, if they didn't had pushed her that hard in the Eternals and had just added her as Member to Tynions TEC-team, and let Tim and Steph long enough on the team to actually develop the relation between the younger team members (ideally they had Duke also interact with them since he is around their age and had asimilar experience level as Steph and Harper).

[lemonpeace]

Any love for Calvin Rose A.K.A. Talon?

I think he joined Batman Inc. during or just after his solo series. I miss him and Strix.

I miss David Zavimbe, the best Batwing, and where his character was going.

I love me some Harper Row as well.

When I think of the Bat Family I think in terms of groups. Who's a part of the nuclear group, who's a part of the extended group, and who are the satellite characters that can be considered family.

Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Babs, Jason, Tim, and Damien are the nuclear fam

Lucius Fox, James Gordon, Kate Kane, Luke Fox, Duke Thomas, Stephanie Brown, Cassandra Cain, Selina Kyle to name a few are the extended fam

Jean-Paul Valley, Harper Row, Calvin Rose, Batman Inc, Dinah Lance, Helena Bertinelli, Zatanna, Katana, Black Lightning, etc. are the satellite members.

Not to mention the numerous villains, civilians, and other heroes that orbit Batman's Family. His universe is huge!

I love new characters, I love Batman and his family, and I would like to see it grow. Hopefully, some of my favorite's get focused attention from time to time.

With all due respect, I don't think these characters can really be considered Batmembers even in a "satellite" capacity. In my humble opinion, they're more like frequent Batman collaborators (a la Superman or Detective Chimp or Wonder Woman) and don't exactly fall under Batman's purview to the extent that they can be considered "batfamily" without disrespecting their autonomy as characters.

[a moment closer]

With all due respect, I don't think these characters can really be considered Batmembers even in a "satellite" capacity. In my humble opinion, they're more like frequent Batman collaborators (a la Superman or Detective Chimp or Wonder Woman) and don't exactly fall under Batman's purview to the extent that they can be considered "batfamily" without disrespecting their autonomy as characters.

I understand what you mean but their autonomy is what puts them outside the bat family. Just as Batman could be considered a satellite member of Black Lightning's family because he's a friend that would be called on in times of need. It's just the phrase I used. Satellite family member is as equal to a collaborator is as equal to a colleague. I'm just implying that they are more likely to be called by Batman in his personal mission to save Gotham than Superman or Wonder Woman.

[Caivu]

Edit: never mind

[lemonpeace]

I understand what you mean but their autonomy is what puts them outside the bat family. Just as Batman could be considered a satellite member of Black Lightning's family because he's a friend that would be called on in times of need. It's just the phrase I used. Satellite family member is as equal to a collaborator is as equal to a colleague. I'm just implying that they are more likely to be called by Batman in his personal mission to save Gotham than Superman or Wonder Woman.

Ah, gotchu. Thanks for clarifying, in that context I can agree.

[Godlike13]

Any love for Calvin Rose A.K.A. Talon?

I think he joined Batman Inc. during or just after his solo series. I miss him and Strix.

I miss David Zavimbe, the best Batwing, and where his character was going.

I love me some Harper Row as well.

When I think of the Bat Family I think in terms of groups. Who's a part of the nuclear group, who's a part of the extended group, and who are the satellite characters that can be considered family.

Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Babs, Jason, Tim, and Damien are the nuclear fam

Lucius Fox, James Gordon, Kate Kane, Luke Fox, Duke Thomas, Stephanie Brown, Cassandra Cain, Selina Kyle to name a few are the extended fam

Jean-Paul Valley, Harper Row, Calvin Rose, Batman Inc, Dinah Lance, Helena Bertinelli, Zatanna, Katana, Black Lightning, etc. are the satellite members.

Not to mention the numerous villains, civilians, and other heroes that orbit Batman's Family. His universe is huge!

I love new characters, I love Batman and his family, and I would like to see it grow. Hopefully, some of my favorite's get focused attention from time to time.

I think this is a good way of generally categorizing them.

[Westbats]

Harper is in a unique position within the Batfamily: she has little training and experience, and has no desire to know anyone's secret identities. Which is frustrating to me as a reader, as she's one of my favourite characters. Maybe it's due to being a public works employee, but I think that using the perspective of Harper just being another face in the crowd when she's not suited up to be pretty cool. Besides, with so many corporations and organizations headed by members of the Batfamily (Wayne Enterprises, FoxTech, Gordon Clean Energy), it's nice to see somebody work a public position.

Another thing Harper has going for her is a general distrust of people, I think being Bluebird could provide her with a silver lining perspective, help her see that even in the worst situations that people can still be good. It might help her relax and open up to people, that'd make for good character development. Balance between school, work, volunteering at Leslie's clinic and the occasional vigilante training, that makes for a good premise of a title. Maybe as a set of mini-series, or even as part of DC Ink.

[Godlike13]

I think they have given up on Harper.

[Westbats]

I think they have given up on Harper.

They gave up on Stephanie, Cassandra, and Jean Paul too, but they're back. Heroes in Gotham don't stay retired for long.

[Godlike13]

Unfortunately Harper doesn't have the fan support they have, nor a run even close to even what they had, and whats more it was her creators themselves who seemingly gave up on her. Not every Gotham hero makes a comeback. She might pop up here or there if she's lucky, but i wouldn't expect much development anymore.

[Swallowtail]

They gave up on Stephanie, Cassandra, and Jean Paul too, but they're back. Heroes in Gotham don't stay retired for long.

All those guys had had successful solo series though. When was the last time we saw Onyx in a Bat-comic? Or Orpheus? Or Beryl?

Snyder mentioned after the fact that a problem for Harper is that other writers weren’t that interested in writing her once he had moved on.

[Westbats]

Snyder mentioned after the fact that a problem for Harper is that other writers weren’t that interested in writing her once he had moved on.

It's frustrating to see after they rushed her character development through Batman Eternal and Batman and Robin Eternal, they didn't really give any ground for new writers to use. Something else I've come to realize is that it has to do with characters are created now versus those in the 90's and early 00's; characters had to room to breath and develop, they didn't have to immediately be the next big hit by issue 2.

[Aahz]

All those guys had had successful solo series though. When was the last time we saw Onyx in a Bat-comic? Or Orpheus? Or Beryl?

At least Onyx is originally a Green Arrow Character and she appeared in Lemire's run.
Not sure if that is still canon, the idea with the weapon clans has not been mentioned post rebirth.

Orpheus is dead, and was not arround long enough to really make an impression.

Beryl is in the same boat as the rest of Batman Inc. But I would claim that she has probably the highest chance to pop up somewhere as a guest character, due to the popularity of Morrisons run and because she is one of the few members of Batman Inc. who got somewhat fleshed out.

[Swallowtail]

It's frustrating to see after they rushed her character development through Batman Eternal and Batman and Robin Eternal, they didn't really give any ground for new writers to use. Something else I've come to realize is that it has to do with characters are created now versus those in the 90's and early 00's; characters had to room to breath and develop, they didn't have to immediately be the next big hit by issue 2.

I mean, Harper got 78 issues of Eternal and Duke has been slowly developing for nearly half a decade. They both have had pretty reasonable shots. What they both lack is a great story in which they are truly essential, like others have enjoyed. Damian is so Omni- present now not just because he was launched in the main batbook but because he was an essential element in Dick’s story at the time.. Jason foundered for even longer than Duke and Harper but Under the Hood is such a compelling story, that it compensated for so much that came after it and was terrible. You can pop Harper and Duke out of continuity like nuts out of their shells and a couple of people might miss them but it wouldn’t cause much of a ripple in any other character’s story. Cass sort of suffers from the same problem. She’s a cool character but her story often fails to intersect with other people’s in essential ways.

[Westbats]

I mean, Harper got 78 issues of Eternal and Duke has been slowly developing for nearly half a decade. They both have had pretty reasonable shots. What they both lack is a great story in which they are truly essential, like others have enjoyed. Damian is so Omni- present now not just because he was launched in the main batbook but because he was an essential element in Dick’s story at the time.. Jason foundered for even longer than Duke and Harper but Under the Hood is such a compelling story, that it compensated for so much that came after it and was terrible. You can pop Harper and Duke out of continuity like nuts out of their shells and a couple of people might miss them but it wouldn’t cause much of a ripple in any other character’s story. Cass sort of suffers from the same problem. She’s a cool character but her story often fails to intersect with other people’s in essential ways.

Honestly I don't know how to feel about Batman Eternal and Batman and Robin Eternal: Besides bringing Stephanie and Cassandra back they didn't have any last impact on continuity, and they felt rushed, unfocused, and disorganized. I guess I'm just waiting for Harper to have her breakout story much like you said about Jason and Under the Hood.