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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Westbats View Post
    They gave up on Stephanie, Cassandra, and Jean Paul too, but they're back. Heroes in Gotham don't stay retired for long.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swallowtail View Post
    All those guys had had successful solo series though.
    I think in Steph's case, her long time as support character for Tim and Cass has probably more wight. I think her becoming Batgirl was more a result of her already existing popularity, than the other way around.

    Btw. in case of Jean Paul I'm curious if he will really stay around for long. At least at the moment he is pretty far away from the rest of the Batfamily. And the only Batfamily member he was really close to in TEC was Luke, who is also in Limbo.

    I'm also wondering what will happen with Huntress, who at least was on the family photo, but has also no book to appear in.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Westbats View Post
    Honestly I don't know how to feel about Batman Eternal and Batman and Robin Eternal: Besides bringing Stephanie and Cassandra back they didn't have any last impact on continuity, and they felt rushed, unfocused, and disorganized. I guess I'm just waiting for Harper to have her breakout story much like you said about Jason and Under the Hood.
    I think Harper would benefit from time being built up as as a support character the same way Oracle was in the late eighties. Masked young heroes we have plenty, but there is a distinct lack of female scientists who can be called in when a doohickey needs assembling.

  3. #63
    Also goes by Westbats Westbats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swallowtail View Post
    I think Harper would benefit from time being built up as as a support character the same way Oracle was in the late eighties. Masked young heroes we have plenty, but there is a distinct lack of female scientists who can be called in when a doohickey needs assembling.
    I like this concept, build her back up over time and make her a last resort field member. Have her design drones and tech to help in situations, so she's able to help on the fly without being in direct harm .
    I am currently reading Batman, Detective Comics, Nightwing, Batgirl, Catwoman, Heroes in Crisis, Justice League, The Batman Who Laughs, Doomsday Clock, Sideways, Ms. Marvel, and Thor.

    In time I hope to read Red Hood and The Outlaws, Batman and The Outsiders, and Young Justice.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swallowtail View Post
    I think Harper would benefit from time being built up as as a support character the same way Oracle was in the late eighties. Masked young heroes we have plenty, but there is a distinct lack of female scientists who can be called in when a doohickey needs assembling.
    Thats Batwings Role....

    For Harper I LOVE the masked Role...She is one of my favorite Characters of the Bat-Family...
    I would even say that she is the coolest one...

    I would get rid of Symbol,Batwing and Batwoman...

    Change Azrael in a Batman Like Costume and continue with Tim Drake,Cass Cain,Azrael and Harper as Team....

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    I would get rid of Symbol,Batwing and Batwoman...

    Change Azrael in a Batman Like Costume and continue with Tim Drake,Cass Cain,Azrael and Harper as Team....
    By "Symbol" did you mean Signal? You want to toss the black family members, and the Jewish/lesbian.

  6. #66
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    SYMBOL XD

    Btw Luke being a scientist is a new thing. He's originally an MMA, annoying jock, type.

    In the Batfam we got
    Commissioner, Gordon
    Acrobat, Dick
    Burglar, Catwoman
    Butler, Alfred
    Spy, Kathy
    Hacker, Babs
    Physician, Leslie
    Scientist, Lucius
    Gunslinger, Jay
    Detective, Tim
    Mechanic, Harold
    Spoiler, spoiler
    Templar, Azrael
    Assassin, Cass
    Mafia, Huntress
    Military, Kate
    Sidekick, Bette
    Ninja, Damian
    MMA, Luke
    Engineer, Harper
    Day shift, Duke
    Agent, Julia

    and if you wanna count them
    Reporter, Vicki
    Biologist, Langstrom
    Botanist, Ivy
    The wild card, Harley

    You wanna get rid of someone, get rid of characters that don't have a niche
    I don't recommend it though

  7. #67
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    I like to break it down via relationships but that works too.

    Batman's Family:

    Father - Alfred

    Children - Dick, Jason, Damian, Tim (?), Cass (?)

    Students - Babs, Stephanie, Duke, Harper

    Cousin/peer - Kate

    Friends/peers - Luke, Azrael, Huntress

    Friends/support - Gordon, Lucius, Leslie, Julia, Dr October

    Love Interest - Selina

    I wouldn't get rid of a character just because they aren't my favourite, but each to their own.

  8. #68
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    I break it down by jobs because that's where the problem is located, how much and when a character should be used. That's also what people ask and why writers prefer to use one character over the other. Especially writers since there's only so much page space.

    "We already have enough scientist and computer wiz in the fam, why add more? What can they do that these older characters (or the ones I already like) can't?"

    Like that.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 06-12-2019 at 01:54 AM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    I break it down by jobs because that's where the problem is located, how much and when a character should be used. That's also what people ask and why writers prefer to use one character over the other. Especially writers since there's only so much page space.

    "We already have enough scientist and computer wiz in the fam, why add more? What can they do that these older characters (or the ones I already like) can't?"

    Like that.
    Since most of them are multi-hyphenate ninja-acrobat-detective-engineers anyway, for me I think it's less about the job they do and more about the internal narrative. For Dick that's about the skill and ethos of Batman without the damage of Batman. For Cass it's about a human weapon who becomes a real girl. For Steph it's about doing your utmost even though you may still not measure up. For Jason it's a prodigal son narrative. The weaker characters suffer from not having that clarity. If you could tell one story with Duke, which could be as long as you liked, but then he was never going to appear again, what would it be? I don't know. Harper's narrative seems to have been "hey, wouldn't it be cool to be a vigilante?" When the resounding response from the fictional universe you're in is "No, and by the way your best friend killed your mother." Where do you take it from there?
    Last edited by Swallowtail; 06-12-2019 at 03:43 PM.

  10. #70
    Mighty Member Lonewolf36's Avatar
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    Harper appeared in the first half of the season of Young Justice: Outsider. Hopefully in the second half of the season she will adopt her Bluebird identity and join the team.

  11. #71
    Also goes by Westbats Westbats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swallowtail View Post
    Since most of them are multi-hyphenate ninja-acrobat-detective-engineers anyway, for me I think it's less about the job they do and more about the internal narrative. For Dick that's about the skill and ethos of Batman without the damage of Batman. For Cass it's about a human weapon who becomes a real girl. For Steph it's about doing your utmost even though you may still not measure up. For Jason it's a prodigal son narrative. The weaker characters suffer from not having that clarity. If you could tell one story with Duke, which could be as long as you liked, but then he was never going to appear again, what would it be? I don't know. Harper's narrative seems to have been "hey, wouldn't it be cool to be a vigilante?" When the resounding response from the fictional universe you're in is "No, and by the way your best friend killed your mother." Where do you take it from there?
    Honestly, I see Harper's narrative originally as "what is Batman to Gotham, and how important is the man behind the mask." Harper idolizes the vigilante lifestyle but has zero interest in knowing Batman's identity, which makes her one, if not the only, member of the family who doesn't know that Bruce is Batman.

    If there was one story I had to tell with Harper, I'd let the proverbial genie out of the bottle: I'd put Harper in a position where she finds out that Bruce is Batman, and then focus on the repercussions of that. Knowing who Batman is would break Harper's faith in him, make the idea of Batman fallible, and given Harper's outlook on people in general, especially if this is during the big Year of the Villain event, she might have a nervous breakdown, think she's put she's putting her brother Cullen in danger because she knows Batman's identity in a city that's only getting more dangerous after Lex Luthor's public declaration of Doom.
    I am currently reading Batman, Detective Comics, Nightwing, Batgirl, Catwoman, Heroes in Crisis, Justice League, The Batman Who Laughs, Doomsday Clock, Sideways, Ms. Marvel, and Thor.

    In time I hope to read Red Hood and The Outlaws, Batman and The Outsiders, and Young Justice.

  12. #72
    Fantastic Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I once heard Tim Drake blamed. His solo book sold. Made money. More bat-family characters = more potential solo books = more sales = more $$$ for DC.

    I do think it's gone overboard. They aren't even a family, really. Many of them have only tenuous connections to each other.

    I like Damian, but I never would have given Bruce a biological child - you can see how it's resulted in the "demotion" of the other people he raised in some people's minds (not most fans, but still). The one "son" and then the others that aren't as important him. There was a particular N52 issue that really bugged me on this. Especially if he can grow up to be Batman and others can't. I actually don't want any of them to (rather they forge their own identities), but if the bio kid can and the adopted kids can't, it's kind of "eww." I still have bad feelings about how Batman Beyond cartoon handled that (I actually hate pretty much everything that one did with current characters, but especially with hooking up Bruce and Barbara and turning Tim into Joker). The adopted kids just weren't up to snuff, and when he found someone who was, it turned out that was his bio kid, his real legacy. I wouldn't want Damian to stop existing (like I said, I like him, at least once he got more decent to people), but there is a can of worms there to me.

    I like Duke well enough, though I hated the concept of We Are Robin (it didn't make sense for Alfred, IMO). Never read Harper or Luke. Was kinda annoyed the existing children of Lucius got shafted on development and a newly-created one got to shine.

    I actually wouldn't have had Bruce adopt Tim, but it gave us stories, too. I liked Tim. Read years of his comic and Young Justice. But there was something interesting about him having to answer to a parent and mentor who were two different people (Bruce was Dick's guardian, Ollie was Roy's guardian, Wally wasn't a sidekick). I wouldn't go back to that, either - too many years of development have gone since, but I really did enjoy the era.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 06-18-2019 at 03:29 PM.

  13. #73
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    I guess if you're blaming Tim you have to blame Batman for being so gosh darned popular, that all his support cast are now popular enough to support their own books. It doesn't help that we are in an era where people stick pretty rigidly to their own books and if they don't it's a special "And Starring" event. They don't just pop in to be each other's supporting cast anymore.

    I think peripheral characters will always come and go. It was girlfriends in the eighties. It's kids now. I don't think the core mass of the batfamily has shifted that much since the nineties, except that Azrael and Huntress have ceded their spots to Jason and Damian. They're still trying to make Duke happen as family-family but the others have dropped away and even the Duke push has started to slacken off now that he's moved to the Outsiders. Those superpowers are a bit of a millstone around his neck.

    I do agree that the blood-son stuff with Damian is pretty awful.

  14. #74
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    I like We Are Robin concept except for the Alfred part. It should be just street kids or kids abandoned and disappointed by their life or adult figure that they feel can't protect them. Kids seeking purpose in a heroic symbol and a heroic figure that they heard and saw growing up.

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    I like We Are Robin concept except for the Alfred part. It should be just street kids or kids abandoned and disappointed by their life or adult figure that they feel can't protect them. Kids seeking purpose in a heroic symbol and a heroic figure that they heard and saw growing up.
    We got "We Are Robin,", we're now getting "We Are Nightwing" (as awful as it is), but now I WANT "We Are Alfred". Where a dozen or so British butlers suddenly show up at the Wayne Manor and drive the whole family Batty, as it turns out to be a prank by Alfred in the end.

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