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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I like Damian, but I never would have given Bruce a biological child - you can see how it's resulted in the "demotion" of the other people he raised in some people's minds (not most fans, but still). The one "son" and then the others that aren't as important him. There was a particular N52 issue that really bugged me on this. Especially if he can grow up to be Batman and others can't. I actually don't want any of them to (rather they forge their own identities), but if the bio kid can and the adopted kids can't, it's kind of "eww." I still have bad feelings about how Batman Beyond cartoon handled that (I actually hate pretty much everything that one did with current characters, but especially with hooking up Bruce and Barbara and turning Tim into Joker). The adopted kids just weren't up to snuff, and when he found someone who was, it turned out that was his bio kid, his real legacy. I wouldn't want Damian to stop existing (like I said, I like him, at least once he got more decent to people), but there is a can of worms there to me.
    See, thats a misconception. It only resulted in a perceived demotion of the others that some fans wanted Bruce to have raised. But the kid Bruce truly did raise actually benefited from Damian’s introduction. I think that’s one of the reasons you see an overlap with Dick fans and Damian fans. They actually compliment one another, where the others don’t really, and it’s with them that Damian is perceived as a threat.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 06-18-2019 at 05:40 PM.

  2. #77
    Fantastic Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    See, thats a misconception. It only resulted in a perceived demotion of the others that some fans wanted Bruce to have raised.
    No, I definitely saw some in-universe behaviors of Bruce regarding Damian his child in a way he didn't the others (definitely including Dick). And let's talk about the reboot undoing some adoptions (making them no longer Bruce's children and I'd call that a demotion even if I preferred Tim in pre-adoption days) but Damian's still his kid (despite the Deathstroke bit).

  3. #78
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    Like when? Hell i’d even argue that there are more times where Bruce is actually more distant to Damian then the others. And Bruce’s children never needed to be adopted to be his children. It was obvious where they stood regardless.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 06-18-2019 at 06:05 PM.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    See, thats a misconception. It only resulted in a perceived demotion of the others that some fans wanted Bruce to have raised. But the kid Bruce truly did raise actually benefited from Damianís introduction. I think thatís one of the reasons you see an overlap with Dick fans and Damian fans. They actually compliment one another, where the others donít really, and itís with them that Damian is perceived as a threat.
    At least I had often the perception that some writers treat Tim and Jason as second rate Robins.
    And Tim has really been massively demoted in comparison to pre flashpoint. He hasn't had a solo book since then, and he had barely any interaction with Bruce until Rebirth.

  5. #80
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    Well Red Hood was built on the idea of Jason as the failed/forgotten Robin, which has nothing to do with Damian, and Tim was actually given a more prominent role with DC’s attempt at a Young Justice line. Not once, but twice now. DC actually had far bigger aspirations for Tim with the New 52 then any of the other Robins. And even now, you don’t see them putting likes of Bendis on any of them so they can yet again try to launch a line with them at the center.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 06-19-2019 at 12:40 AM.

  6. #81
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    No, I definitely saw some in-universe behaviors of Bruce regarding Damian his child in a way he didn't the others (definitely including Dick). And let's talk about the reboot undoing some adoptions (making them no longer Bruce's children and I'd call that a demotion even if I preferred Tim in pre-adoption days) but Damian's still his kid (despite the Deathstroke bit).
    And yet it's Dick getting shot that led Bruce to do something as bad as leaving a man for dead. And yet Dick is the one that was chosen as the one most important to Bruce that he had to be taken down for Bruce to be broken.

    Why is not being Bruce's adopted kid a demotion? Tim Drake having parents was his big selling point. In the words of his creator it made him better than and more interesting than Dick and Jason.

    I feel fans have to stop and think and ask themselves why does this bother me so much?
    You are aware that since the New52 Damian isn't even handled by the bat office? You are aware that since the new52 Duke and Tim have been the sidekicks next to Bruce in the bat books.

  7. #82
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Well Red Hood was built on the idea of Jason as the failed/forgotten Robin, which has nothing to do with Damian, and Tim was actually given a more prominent role with DCís attempt at a Young Justice line. Not once, but twice now. DC actually had far bigger aspirations for Tim with the New 52 then any of the other Robins. And even now, you donít see them putting likes of Bendis on any of them so they can yet again try to launch a line with them at the center.
    Their plan for Tim goes only as far as branding. Young Justice and Teen Titans. There's a disconnect between what fans want or how the character is perceived and how DC views him in the New 52. This time it works because they got a writer who cares, but in the New 52, they have no problem fundamentally changing his character and back story without thinking how it's going to affect the story, his relationship, and how his character is perceived.

    Outside of comics, he's been excluded by DC animation inspired by the comic line. The movie series started with New 52. He only appeared in adaptation not directly related to the comic, like Young Justice, Arkham games, or that promo for toy car line.

  8. #83
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    At least I had often the perception that some writers treat Tim and Jason as second rate Robins.
    And Tim has really been massively demoted in comparison to pre flashpoint. He hasn't had a solo book since then, and he had barely any interaction with Bruce until Rebirth.
    Damian has had even less interaction with Bruce and he is Robin. You know Batman's partner.

    Jason and Tim not getting as much use as Dick and Damian has nothing to do with blood or are you saying it does?

    Fans need to understand that writers have a right to use the characters they want. Synder gave a press confrece where he stated that Damian wasn't going to be a part of Metal then that all changed when Williamson made his pitch for Gotham Resistance for which he wanted to use Dick and Damian which was how come Damian atleast ended with a part in Metal. Now let me ask you this Aahz does Williamson not have the right to do this?

    Is it Dick or Damian's fault that they writer choose them?
    Is it anyone's fault that some writers have more stories they want to tell with certain characters?

    Does DC owe Tim a solo book?

    So what if some writers treat Jason and Tim like second rate Robins? what does that have to do with Dick and Damian?

  9. #84
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    And yet it's Dick getting shot that led Bruce to do something as bad as leaving a man for dead. And yet Dick is the one that was chosen as the one most important to Bruce that he had to be taken down for Bruce to be broken.

    Why is not being Bruce's adopted kid a demotion? Tim Drake having parents was his big selling point. In the words of his creator it made him better than and more interesting than Dick and Jason.

    I feel fans have to stop and think and ask themselves why does this bother me so much?
    You are aware that since the New52 Damian isn't even handled by the bat office? You are aware that since the new52 Duke and Tim have been the sidekicks next to Bruce in the bat books.
    Adoption is considered demotion by the point of view that the closer you are to Batman the more important you are since Batman is DC's star. Therefore, positioning Damian as the Son of Batman while the others as non adopted Robin means they're not Batman's son meaning they're not as important, hence, demotion.

  10. #85
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Their plan for Tim goes only as far as branding. Young Justice and Teen Titans. There's a disconnect between what fans want or how the character is perceived and how DC views him in the New 52. This time it works because they got a writer who cares, but in the New 52, they have no problem fundamentally changing his character and back story without thinking how it's going to affect the story, his relationship, and how his character is perceived.

    Outside of comics, he's been excluded by DC animation inspired by the comic line. The movie series started with New 52. He only appeared in adaptation not directly related to the comic, like Young Justice, Arkham games, or that promo for toy car line.
    Just like Jason was excluded from BTAS despite the role being written for him. And no he hasn't he was in movies aside from the streamlined shared animated universe. DC tends to stick to the one Robin in animation. Dick which makes sense 4 robins is a bit much. that only started changing recently.

    I wouldn't call it exclusion more like Business strategy.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Adoption is considered demotion by the point of view that the closer you are to Batman the more important you are since Batman is DC's star. Therefore, positioning Damian as the Son of Batman while the others as non adopted Robin means they're not Batman's son meaning they're not as important, hence, demotion.
    This is again just a misconception, a honestly a bit of a fallacy, one birthed by fan insecurity. The idea that being the blood son of Batman makes him closer is just false. Dick for example doesn’t, and has never needed to be adopted, to be important to Bruce. And never has Damian been a threat to his place or on his relationship with Bruce. Bruce adopting them has always been just fan service. Bruce’s relationship with those he takes in is, at least when done right, evident regardless.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 06-19-2019 at 01:36 AM.

  12. #87
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Adoption is considered demotion by the point of view that the closer you are to Batman the more important you are since Batman is DC's star. Therefore, positioning Damian as the Son of Batman while the others as non adopted Robin means they're not Batman's son meaning they're not as important, hence, demotion.
    If adoption is considered a demotion from that point of view then Tim was already demoted right from the start seeing as he had parent in direct contradiction to what made him so special and better by DC's own words.

    Proving that it's all in the minds of fans. Not to mention that that this started when they were all still adopted.

    Again I say it. Not blood Dick and Jason have their own titles whereas blood Damian doesn't [despite Damian sales being better than Jason's]
    Blood Damian hasn't been in a title or under use by the bat office despite being blood and being robin that role/privilege went to not blood not adopted Duke and Tim.

    I will say that projects like Supersons and Son of batman are a result of Damian being the blood son. I do also get the notion that proximity to batman brings privileges as well as being the current Robin. A lot of fans confuse the privileges that come with Robin with being blood.

    Tim lost privileges when he stopped being Robin [nothing to do with his DNA]. Ironically Damian has been denied some privileges of been Robin.

  13. #88
    Fantastic Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Again I say it. Not blood Dick and Jason have their own titles whereas blood Damian doesn't [despite Damian sales being better than Jason's]
    Blood Damian hasn't been in a title or under use by the bat office despite being blood and being robin that role/privilege went to not blood not adopted Duke and Tim.
    I just want to clarify that when I said a blood son ran the risk others getting demoted, I mean demoted within the family-view and the connection to Bruce and Batman, not in terms of attention from DC, own books, etc. I meant in demoted as Bruce's kids in the emotional sense from writers, particularly, but also from some fans.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Damian has had even less interaction with Bruce and he is Robin. You know Batman's partner.
    Directly after the reboot Damian was in two books together with Bruce (Batman & Robin and Batman Inc.) and appeared iirc also in one story arc of the "third Batman book" (I have forgotten what it was called).

    Tim barely appeared in the "Batman & Red Robin" issue (after Damians death), and didn't had any real team up with Bruce untill Rebirth. He had in the time frame between Flashpoint and Rebirth probably the least interaction with Bruce of any of the Batfamily members.
    And now after the conclusion of Tynions Run he seems to completly separated from the Batfamily again.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Again I say it. Not blood Dick and Jason have their own titles whereas blood Damian doesn't [despite Damian sales being better than Jason's]
    Jason bock has untill recently been a team book, and at least at the moment sales for Red Hood: Outlaw and Adventures of the Super Sons are roughly equal.

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