Zoom, Ink, and Black Label

[Vakanai]

I get the point but I'd say he's looking at the wrong audience. YA books shouldn't have to appeal to the Wednesday warrior crowd.

Agreed, but his argument is that if you change them neither the YA or Wednesday warrior crowd would like it. But that's ignoring the possibility that you can just keep pumping out the YA takes on these characters and having two markets, or that outside of focus and other minor nitpicks the bulk of these books haven't strayed that far away from more familiar takes on these characters. Sure, you have Gotham High as the extreme outlier, but I don't think anyone can pick up Superman Smashes the Klan and say that version is unrecognizable from the main books.

The point he makes (from my understanding) is that there isn't really much of a point to make these YA books based on established characters. Since the Fans of these characters wont like radically different takes, and for new readers (outside of the existing reader base) might not buy a book with such a character, since they think they would to read other stuff first to under stand it.

As counter example he points at "Primer" an Kids-OGN by DC, that is not based on a pre existing character and is currently one of the best selling DC-Graphic Novels on Amazon.

Hey, we posted at the same time!

My problem is he doesn't go into his argument. Yes, he tries to say that fans won't read radically different takes, or that new readers won't like becoming fans of one version of the character and finding the real character isn't like that, but my problem with his stance is he never goes into detail about what makes YA vs Adult books "radically different". Outside what is an acceptable level of violence, or some minor points of focus, and of course the ever nebulous debate of continuity, there have been plenty of these books that don't seem all that radically different. Of the books I've personally read, Superman Smashes the Klan, Batman Overdrive, Batman Nightwalker, Under the Moon A Catwoman Tale all fit comfortably in the normal albeit slightly Elseworld-y parameters of what I'd expect from these heroes. The only one that doesn't fit the more superhero/antihero mold was the Lois Lane book, but then she's not a traditional "superhero" to begin with. If his argument is that changing these characters won't work, he has to back it up with examples of what has been changed and how it doesn't work.



Edit: He also brought up the "history" of these characters vs new ones - basically the argument that new readers don't want to read books on these characters because they feel they'd have to read "all" the books these heroes have ever had, which I personally think it a bit ridiculous.

[Vakanai]

The guy makes like 2-3 short videos a day, so usually doesn't go into much detail.
He discussed iirc several of the OGN on this channel, and in case of Primer he did a review together with his (preteen?) daughter, who really liked the book.

He is or was comic retailer and mostly looking on stuff from a business perspective.

First off, let me just say - d'aww! I like he's doing reviews with his kid then, that's pretty sweet.

Still, I didn't get anything from his video that said it was bad even from a business perspective. He said fans won't like radically different versions, that new fans wouldn't like the old versions, and that Primer was the way to go because it made so much, but still there was no facts really to back up the first two points, nor much acknowledgment that the normal and kids/ya books really haven't been that radically different really.

Honestly, I got the sense he hadn't read any of these other (non-Primer) books and was just making a lot of assumptions, although I could be wrong on that.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I grew up with Smallville so I'd probably use that approach to these books. I'd find characters who could've had adventures when they were teens. Wally makes more sense than Barry because he starts out as Kid Flash?

Or just retcon them in. Would Vixen really change that much from starting out as a teen?

Death Note came out when I was high school. That is a journey to villianhood story. So that gives you options for the villians. The Batman cartoon from the early 2000s actually had a teenage Poison Ivy.

Vakanai's post raised about bringing over the YA fans to the comics. I don't have a clear answer because my entry to comics is odd compared to everyone else's. And my tastes are different.

I'd suggest bringing over the writers. Kami Garcia should be doing a miniseries about Beast Boy or Raven. The YA books are their teen years, the miniseries are their adult years. Just do a high school reunion plot or something as the framing device and you'll be fine.

[Konja7]

Hey, we posted at the same time!

My problem is he doesn't go into his argument. Yes, he tries to say that fans won't read radically different takes, or that new readers won't like becoming fans of one version of the character and finding the real character isn't like that, but my problem with his stance is he never goes into detail about what makes YA vs Adult books "radically different". Outside what is an acceptable level of violence, or some minor points of focus, and of course the ever nebulous debate of continuity, there have been plenty of these books that don't seem all that radically different. Of the books I've personally read, Superman Smashes the Klan, Batman Overdrive, Batman Nightwalker, Under the Moon A Catwoman Tale all fit comfortably in the normal albeit slightly Elseworld-y parameters of what I'd expect from these heroes. The only one that doesn't fit the more superhero/antihero mold was the Lois Lane book, but then she's not a traditional "superhero" to begin with. If his argument is that changing these characters won't work, he has to back it up with examples of what has been changed and how it doesn't work.

I would say "The Lost Carnival: A Dick Grayson Graphic Novel" handle Dick Grayson in a pretty different way too.

[Vakanai]

I grew up with Smallville so I'd probably use that approach to these books. I'd find characters who could've had adventures when they were teens. Wally makes more sense than Barry because he starts out as Kid Flash?

Or just retcon them in. Would Vixen really change that much from starting out as a teen?

Death Note came out when I was high school. That is a journey to villianhood story. So that gives you options for the villians. The Batman cartoon from the early 2000s actually had a teenage Poison Ivy.

Vakanai's post raised about bringing over the YA fans to the comics. I don't have a clear answer because my entry to comics is odd compared to everyone else's. And my tastes are different.

I'd suggest bringing over the writers. Kami Garcia should be doing a miniseries about Beast Boy or Raven. The YA books are their teen years, the miniseries are their adult years. Just do a high school reunion plot or something as the framing device and you'll be fine.

On retconning them in bit, I don't really have a problem with that, but for some reason a lot of older fans do - mostly because they're stuck loving a very particular continuity where this happened and this didn't happen, and continuity should be revered and never change. Which...I don't think is sustainable long term really. I think there's going to be a lot of continuities in the future, that the YA market with different books doing their own continuity is what we're ultimately moving to. But that's just my own opinion with not much to back it up. But you're right, for a lot of superheroes it doesn't matter when they start. Superman has had multiple continuities where he worked as "Superboy" just fine. There's nothing in Batman's modus operandi or lore that says he can't start working from the shadows as a teen. Wonder Woman can leave her island earlier. None of this really changes the characters fundamentally - especially if we embrace multiple continuities and looser continuities more. There's no reason an adult Batman book and a teen Batman book can't exist side by side for two audiences.


As for bringing YA readers over to the comic books, that might not be the goal. The YA market overall is bigger than the comic book market. The basic book market is bigger than the comic book market in the dwindling comic book shops. Rather than trying to entice the YA fans over to our model, our model might be the version that is doomed. The YA readers will get into more Adult (no not porn!) books. More OGNs and the like. Basically, superhero fiction might be moving out of the single issue monthly we know so well, and resemble more the OGN/YA/manga/book market that exists outside our bubble. So instead of enticing them over to the main books, we may need to be enticed over to their model and away from what we think is the "main" books.

[Vakanai]

I would say "The Lost Carnival: A Dick Grayson Graphic Novel" handle Dick Grayson in a pretty different way too.

I did say of the books I personally read (I just don't have the funds for all of them - it's why I typically just stick with a few Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman trades every year with a few books reaching into other corners and characters just to give it a try). I'm sure there's plenty in the ones I haven't read (yet) that are more radically different, and this book probably counts. Still, I think my point that most versions represent a more traditionally superhero-y take on the characters holds. A few weird or wildly different takes to contrast against the bulk of more normal-but-skewed-younger stuff shouldn't be damaging. Experimentation, even wildly off the beaten path, is healthy in moderation.

Would you recommend "The Lost Carnival: A Dick Grayson Graphic Novel" any?

[Aahz]

There's nothing in Batman's modus operandi or lore that says he can't start working from the shadows as a teen.

But is there a need for a teen Batman?
Can't you just do Stories with any Adult Batman for Children/Teens?

I mean most stuff I read and watched as a teen had adult main characters, and a lot of the typical "YA" stuff I would have probably never touched (OK YA wasn't really a thing back than).

[Vakanai]

But is there a need for a teen Batman?

Does there need to be a need? I never understand this question of need. Is there a need for Batman? Like, does he actually need to exist at all? Do comic books themselves even fulfill a need at all? The answer is ultimately no. People only ask the need question if they don't want to see something, but they never apply it further than that. None of this is needed, truthfully. That doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. Need is a terrible argument when deciding if something should be done or not. Most of the comforts of living aren't needed.

Can't you just do Stories with any Adult Batman for Children/Teens?

Yes, you can. And no one will argue against that. But is there any reason you can't or shouldn't do teen versions of these characters every now and then just to change things up? Is there anything wrong with doing a Teen Batman book?

I mean most stuff I read and watched as a teen had adult main characters, and a lot of the typical "YA" stuff I would have probably never touched (OK YA wasn't really a thing back than).

Same here, same here. But I also watched Teen Batman in Batman Beyond. And I enjoyed Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. And Static Shock. And Power Rangers.
Especially as a kid, kids love teen stuff.
Nothing wrong with it from time to time. Just more versions to enjoy. More takes to watch.


So, yes, Adult Batman for kids and for teens is good and works. But if someone has an idea for Teen Batman? Why not?

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Continuity is something I have less interest in over the years. DC has done such a poor job with it so I don't really pay attention anymore. Bending Continuity so Garfield can have some childhood friends is an acceptable risk in my eyes.

Need is more a business term not a creative term. Being creative is about curiosity to me. So being curious about a teen Batman is an acceptable reason to write. Does it need to be Bruce Wayne? Not really. I enjoyed Terry McGinnis from Batman Beyond.

Teen Batman makes more sense pragmatically. The Earth One books felt redundant to the new 52 because the New 52 was also doing younger less experienced versions of classic characters. Teen Batman is just easier branding.

One way to fix Earth One would be to use it for Future State. Put the replacement characters there and building a new universe around them. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

https://comicsalliance.com/superman-712-muslim/

I'd wish this guy got a book. . I would've loved this as a kid/teen.

[skyvolt2000]

I get the point but I'd say he's looking at the wrong audience. YA books shouldn't have to appeal to the Wednesday warrior crowd.

I think what he is trying to say is those YA books should MATCH what the Wednesday Warrior wants because that is who has the money.

Nubia is or was related to Wonder Woman since the 70s.

What parents are he talking about? No parent has said that they need to buy every Wonder Woman book because of Nubia. They didn't do that with Miles, Falcon, Panther, Shuri, Rhodey or Static.

Marvel and DC have created new characters-GUESS WHO RAISES HECK OVER IT?

He was NOT making any points.

[J. D. Guy]

https://comicsalliance.com/superman-712-muslim/

I'd wish this guy got a book. . I would've loved this as a kid/teen.

Dang it! This would have been legit cool to have. Sharif not getting his Superman spinoff series was a wasted opportunity.

The only thing now is to hope one day that a writer and/or editor will appear who will have a mind to give Sharif an actual, earnest chance.

[Aahz]

Need is more a business term not a creative term. Being creative is about curiosity to me. So being curious about a teen Batman is an acceptable reason to write. Does it need to be Bruce Wayne? Not really. I enjoyed Terry McGinnis from Batman Beyond.

Teen Batman makes more sense pragmatically. The Earth One books felt redundant to the new 52 because the New 52 was also doing younger less experienced versions of classic characters. Teen Batman is just easier branding.

But with the huge amount of popular teen characters in the Batman franchise, do you really need a teen Bruce Wayne?

And even if you do that, you should imo still stick to crime fighting as main focus of your Teen Batman story, and not turn it into a high school romance/slice of life book.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

But with the huge amount of popular teen characters in the Batman franchise, do you really need a teen Bruce Wayne?

And even if you do that, you should imo still stick to crime fighting as main focus of your Teen Batman story, and not turn it into a high school romance/slice of life book.

No but it's something to explore. There's a decent appeal in exploring Bruce's teenage years. He's one of the few characters you can do that with.

DC should probably monitor that more and pitch other characters. Spread the wealth etc.

I'm cool with slice of life/romance being in superhero fiction. They are genres that are extremely compatible with superheroes. Otherwise Spiderman would've failed to take off. I agree that DC should manage it better.. Maybe have Scott Snyder teach a class on it?

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Dang it! This would have been legit cool to have. Sharif not getting his Superman spinoff series was a wasted opportunity.

The only thing now is to hope one day that a writer and/or editor will appear who will have a mind to give Sharif an actual, earnest chance.

I wanna write a sample for Shariff but I have to reread his original issues. I wanna do for him what Ridley did for Tim Fox.

I believe that the existing minority characters should have a bigger presence in the YA sphere. Representation is something I needed more as a 10-15 year old than as a 30 year old. I like Kamala Khan but she debuted 10 years too late for me personally.

It's not a foolproof method but it's worth a shot.

[Vakanai]

Continuity is something I have less interest in over the years. DC has done such a poor job with it so I don't really pay attention anymore. Bending Continuity so Garfield can have some childhood friends is an acceptable risk in my eyes.

Beast Boy doesn't have any friends? Is there a debate over that from his OGN or something? I don't get the reference.

Need is more a business term not a creative term. Being creative is about curiosity to me. So being curious about a teen Batman is an acceptable reason to write. Does it need to be Bruce Wayne? Not really. I enjoyed Terry McGinnis from Batman Beyond.

Agreed with all this.

Teen Batman makes more sense pragmatically. The Earth One books felt redundant to the new 52 because the New 52 was also doing younger less experienced versions of classic characters. Teen Batman is just easier branding.

Exactly. I hate Damian Wayne. I do. I could do a very nerd-ragey post on how much I don't like Damian (but I won't). And yet I can't deny the easy corporate sale and branding "Son of Batman" is. It's one of those easy to digest concepts that just works (much as I wish it didn't in this case). "Teen Batman" is a similar sort of concept and brand - the hero you love, but younger. I grew up on the Muppet Babies, I remember Young Indiana Jones, Young Sherlock Holmes, Smallville and Gotham were tv shows, comic book fans remember a time when Superboy was just a younger Clark Kent. There's probably dozens more examples out there of taking an established character back to their youth, and often times they're even good.

One way to fix Earth One would be to use it for Future State. Put the replacement characters there and building a new universe around them. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

I don't know about pushing Future State into Earth One. Earth One is already kind of it's own sub-multiverse brand rather than one earth as is, and is meant to be it's own separate thing.

https://comicsalliance.com/superman-712-muslim/

I'd wish this guy got a book. . I would've loved this as a kid/teen.

Not knowing one thing about this character, agreed. We're not living in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 any more, Muslim superheroes shouldn't be something DC needs to be wary of.

I think what he is trying to say is those YA books should MATCH what the Wednesday Warrior wants because that is who has the money.

I don't think so. He was saying that the YA books should be new characters, because changing the old ones wouldn't fly for...some reason he never gave. Even if the changes were minor.

What parents are he talking about? No parent has said that they need to buy every Wonder Woman book because of Nubia. They didn't do that with Miles, Falcon, Panther, Shuri, Rhodey or Static.

I thought that was a bad point too. Like, looking at the images of these YA OGNs, nothing about them screams "You need to know their full 80+ year publishing histories to appreciate this!"

Marvel and DC have created new characters-GUESS WHO RAISES HECK OVER IT?

Who? No really, is there heck being raised over a new character or something?

Dang it! This would have been legit cool to have. Sharif not getting his Superman spinoff series was a wasted opportunity.

The only thing now is to hope one day that a writer and/or editor will appear who will have a mind to give Sharif an actual, earnest chance.

I think with the MCU set to debut Miss Marvel AT&T and WB will pressure DC into doing more with their POC and youth characters like Sharif.

But with the huge amount of popular teen characters in the Batman franchise, do you really need a teen Bruce Wayne?

Again, there's that "need" question that doesn't really help. Do you "need" a Batman franchise? No, you need food, water, air, and shelter. Everything else is just a question of want or desire. There's never a need in fiction, but is there a desire or want there? I don't know. But I do know this - a teenage Batman is probably more popular than any of the "popular" teen characters in his franchise. Remember, we're discussing the YA audience, and to most of the world outside of these CBR forums Batman is just much more popular than the rest of his Batfamily. People who would pass over a Dick Grayson or Jason Todd or Tim Drake book or would pass over a Barbara Gordon or Cass Cain or Stephanie Brown book, or Harper Row or Duke Thomas book, would still stop and take notice of a Teen Batman book properly marketed. There's a definite market there for more takes on Batman then there is for his army of sidekicks and partners. Especially to start with - you need to draw them into Batman before you can expect them to check out his wider universe of characters.

Also, the only "need" WB cares about is the need to make a profit, and it a teen Batman book would sell then there's the "need" fulfilled right there.

And besides, why not?


Also I would like to point out I've never said that all those characters I listed shouldn't be given a book or couldn't strike it off with young adults - they should and they can. I was merely explaining that their existence in no way negates the possible value of a teen Batman and shouldn't be used as an argument not to do it.

And even if you do that, you should imo still stick to crime fighting as main focus of your Teen Batman story, and not turn it into a high school romance/slice of life book.

It's superhero fiction, of course he'll fight crime. But a book can still do that and be just as much about those other elements as well. Especially if that's what the audience wants to see. It's broadening the character to include those elements more in some takes, not restrictive and removing other elements. Batman will always be punching out his rogues gallery, that's too baked into his DNA.

No but it's something to explore. There's a decent appeal in exploring Bruce's teenage years. He's one of the few characters you can do that with.

True. I mean Superman works, whether as Superboy or just doing stuff in Smallville, and it's not important what age Wonder Woman leaves the island, but it's hard to make stories pushing back Green Arrow's origin (the five years on an island tends to naturally age him up) or Barry's. I mean you can ditch the test pilot part of Hal's origin so he can get the ring as a teen and not change much. Martian Manhunter no. Aquaman, I don't know, maybe? Hawkman and Hawkwoman might be hard, though I could see an angle if just for one story.

It's interesting thinking about which heroes could or couldn't be reworked as teens without changing too much.

DC should probably monitor that more and pitch other characters. Spread the wealth etc.

Agreed. I obviously love Batman and want more books, but I also love Superman and Wonder Woman too. And while other characters interest me less, they're somebody's favorites and deserve more books too.

I'm cool with slice of life/romance being in superhero fiction. They are genres that are extremely compatible with superheroes. Otherwise Spiderman would've failed to take off. I agree that DC should manage it better.. Maybe have Scott Snyder teach a class on it?

Scott Snyder do a lot of teen books? And agreed, slice of life/romance are natural fits with superheroes.

I wanna write a sample for Shariff but I have to reread his original issues. I wanna do for him what Ridley did for Tim Fox.

I believe that the existing minority characters should have a bigger presence in the YA sphere. Representation is something I needed more as a 10-15 year old than as a 30 year old. I like Kamala Khan but she debuted 10 years too late for me personally.

It's not a foolproof method but it's worth a shot.

Again, agreed. Representation is something that clearly we needed more of - the world would be a less screwy place right now if earlier generations had gotten used to representation and diversity as kids and teens.