Captain America, his morals and beliefs and the Snap in the MCU....

[Cmbmool]

Eh... that's just guilt though. I mean Tony and Steve where friends who had a disagreement. After the disagreement they couldn't work together because they no longer were on the same page. Neither Tony or Steve could predict the future to know for sure what would happen down the road.

Can't really blame either one for not forcing themselves to tolerate each other.

Then explain the vision that Tony saw in Age of Ultorn ? How he warned the team of the threat in space and look how that turned out ?

[Cmbmool]

You can actually blame Civil War for the split, and that gets into some pretty thorny issues about whether or not superheroes should be answerable to a higher authority, given the collateral damage that seems to wrack up whenever they're out fighting the good fight, or if they should be allowed to operate unmolested by politics and bureaucracy, given how corrupt institutional authorities tend to be in a superhero-centric universe. That said, Cap offered an olive branch to Tony at the end, admitted he was wrong for keeping how Tony's parents really died and who the murder weapon was a secret from him, and said he'd be there anytime Tony needed him. In Avengers: Infinity War, even facing a threat like Thanos and his vanguard, Tony still wouldn't call Cap, and by the time Bruce Banner was able to call him instead, Tony was already off in space with Peter/Spider-Man and Doctor Strange, and that was what kept them from being able to unite against Thanos's forces.

No Tony was about to consider calling in Steve if it wasn’t for the attention of Ebony Maw. Also we knew Tony has his ego and pride as a problem, but he knew what had to be done at the time. Even if he didn’t like it.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Strange had never manipulated time on such a level and had been warned against misuse of the stone's power by Wong and Mordo.

I meant that Strange could figure out how to work the space ship, using the time stone

If they'd fought Thanos without any of the people I pointed out, they'd have still lost. Wanda had to tap into a level of rage she'd have never felt before in Endgame and her performance in Infinity War doesn't speak well of her ability to fight off Thanos' minions let alone Thanos himself. And there's the huge army which is far more deadly than the Chitauri and Ultron.

You seem to have forgotten that Thanos, by in large, did not travel with his army during Infinity War. Probably because he had the gauntlet with three of the most useful gems, making him more powerful than his entire army combined. During Infinity War, Thanos' army was a distraction more than it was a threat.

As for Wanda, during Infinity War, she held off Thanos, with the Infinity Gauntlet, while destroying Vision's stone. So yeah, she doesn't need an Endgame pissed moment to match him.

The strongest dog pile like they did in Endgame, with Wanda in place of Captain Marvel, an Thor snicker snacks.

The only reason why the Avengers needed so many people to beat Thanos in Endgame was because Thanos had a super army behind him and blew up the compound with a depleted Avengers roster still in it. He had an army, but no gauntlet.

The Thanos in Infinity War, and Thanos (2014) in Endgame were two entirely different tactical situations, requiring different responses and solutions.

And again, Tony's response sucked hard. He refused to consider turning back, simply because of a fight in which no one was killed, to face an enemy who he knew had beaten the Hulk (and thought had killed Thor) with one stone, one skilled but inexperienced Spider-man and an unfamiliar and hostile ally and no other resources whatsoever.

Had he turned back, Tony could have fought Thanos on his terms, using two Infinity Stones, the entire team of Avengers plus all his armors and tricks. Tony lambasted Steve about fighting his idea for 'an armor around the world', but that armor isn't worth sh*t if you leave that armored world, is it?

Maybe Steve made some mistakes in the lead up to Infinity War, but Tony (and Dr. Strange, for agreeing) made the worst ones during.

[DragonsChi]

Then explain the vision that Tony saw in Age of Ultorn ? How he warned the team of the threat in space and look how that turned out ?

Still.

Stark wasn't sure and his fear end result led to him creating thousands of robots that would police the world, whether individual countries agreed to it or not.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Then explain the vision that Tony saw in Age of Ultorn ? How he warned the team of the threat in space and look how that turned out ?

Err, that was Scarlet Witch playing on his fears.

During the first movie, Tony was the one who saw that the guys coming through the portal were but a small tip of the spear, and he became obsessed about that fact.

[Cmbmool]

Err, that was Scarlet Witch playing on his fears.

During the first movie, Tony was the one who saw that the guys coming through the portal were but a small tip of the spear, and he became obsessed about that fact.

Tip of the spear is one thing...however the real threat is the person holding said spear, right ?

[DrNewGod]

Nah. Doesn't work. Even had The Avengers registered and stayed together, the events of Ragnarok would not have been materially affected (meaning Thor and Hulk are still off the table), and the outcome of the Order's twin ambushes would likely have been little different. In fact, it might have been way worse.

Iron Man had been retired up until CW ("active duty noncombatant...", remember?), so he might not have had his armor with him when Thanos' boys came a'callin', nor would he have had any reason to recruit and upgrade Spider-Man. That means Dr. Strange and Wong would have been facing an assault on their own, leaving Strange with no one to rescue him. While the other Order team might have run into a larger Avengers contingent, their attack by stealth would still likely have wounded Vision. What's more, absent the events of CW, there's no reason for Black Panther to have lent his aid, and Wakanda's super-advanced defenses to the protection of the Mind Stone.

In the end, Thanos not only still assembles his gauntlet, he likely does so faster (there's no detour to Titan slowing him down). Thus, he's on hand to personally supervise the second assault on the Vision, probably at Avengers Compound, which has much less of a chance to hold off his armies even without his added power. Odds are he would have killed everybody and completed the snap before Thor even got to the scene.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Tony's whole 'armor around the world' thing, IMO, doesn't vindicate him if he leaves that world. Just saying.

[Huntsman Spider]

Tony's whole 'armor around the world' thing, IMO, doesn't vindicate him if he leaves that world. Just saying.

And let's not forget that when he tried that, the A.I. that was supposed to guide and coordinate that armor went off the rails and decided the Avengers, and later humanity itself, were the real problem and had to be eliminated.

[The Cool Thatguy]

And let's not forget that when he tried that, the A.I. that was supposed to guide and coordinate that armor went off the rails and decided the Avengers, and later humanity itself, were the real problem and had to be eliminated.

True, but he's made reliable AIs before.

I really wish Joss had bothered to better define the differences between Jarvis, Friday and Ultron. I figured Ultron was a Trojan horse by Thanos, but still

[H-E-D]

JARVIS and Friday were artificial intelligences like Siri and Google Assistant. Extrapolated to Iron Man levels, yes, but not actually true independent minds. Ultron an artificial intelligence in the more classic SF trope interpretation.

In Mass Effect terms, JARVIS was a VI, and Ultron was an AI

[MaximoffTrash]

JARVIS and Friday were artificial intelligences like Siri and Google Assistant. Extrapolated to Iron Man levels, yes, but not actually true independent minds. Ultron an artificial intelligence in the more classic SF trope interpretation.

In Mass Effect terms, JARVIS was a VI, and Ultron was an AI

Yep, and Ultron is no EDI but straight out Reapers.

[Arsenal]

Nah. Doesn't work. Even had The Avengers registered and stayed together, the events of Ragnarok would not have been materially affected (meaning Thor and Hulk are still off the table), and the outcome of the Order's twin ambushes would likely have been little different. In fact, it might have been way worse.

Iron Man had been retired up until CW ("active duty noncombatant...", remember?), so he might not have had his armor with him when Thanos' boys came a'callin', nor would he have had any reason to recruit and upgrade Spider-Man. That means Dr. Strange and Wong would have been facing an assault on their own, leaving Strange with no one to rescue him. While the other Order team might have run into a larger Avengers contingent, their attack by stealth would still likely have wounded Vision. What's more, absent the events of CW, there's no reason for Black Panther to have lent his aid, and Wakanda's super-advanced defenses to the protection of the Mind Stone.

In the end, Thanos not only still assembles his gauntlet, he likely does so faster (there's no detour to Titan slowing him down). Thus, he's on hand to personally supervise the second assault on the Vision, probably at Avengers Compound, which has much less of a chance to hold off his armies even without his added power. Odds are he would have killed everybody and completed the snap before Thor even got to the scene.

Honestly, without Banner or Thor there to even the odds, it’s very possible the Black Order outright kills the entire team during thier initial attack. Especially if they get the drop on them like they did in IW.

[Agent Z]

I meant that Strange could figure out how to work the space ship, using the time stone

How?

As for Wanda, during Infinity War, she held off Thanos, with the Infinity Gauntlet, while destroying Vision's stone. So yeah, she doesn't need an Endgame pissed moment to match him.

She held him off temporarily and you can see how much effort it takes to do just that. By comparison, Tony and his team in space came far closer to stopping Thanos.

Maybe Steve made some mistakes in the lead up to Infinity War, but Tony (and Dr. Strange, for agreeing) made the worst ones during.

Well Steve’s refusal to destroy the mind because it would also kill Vision sure didn’t help.
“We don’t trade in lives. Unless it’s Wakandan lives”.

[The Cool Thatguy]

How?

Same way he looked 5 years into the future to see the exact course needed to save everyone. Trial and error, assisted by the time stone

She held him off temporarily and you can see how much effort it takes to do just that. By comparison, Tony and his team in space came far closer to stopping Thanos.

You really do a discredit to Wanda here. She held off a 5 stone Thanos. By herself. While destroying the mind gem.

Backed up by the other Avengers, she could have easily kept Thanos from using the gauntlet while they pounded on him

To repeat

The Thanos in Infinity War, and Thanos (2014) in Endgame were two entirely different tactical situations, requiring different responses and solutions. One had the gauntlet. The other had no stones whatsoever, but a fresh and powerful army behind him.

And again, Tony's response sucked hard. He refused to consider turning back, simply because of a fight in which no one was killed, to face an enemy who he knew had beaten the Hulk (and thought had killed Thor) with one stone, one skilled but inexperienced Spider-man and an unfamiliar and hostile ally and no other resources whatsoever.

Had he turned back, Tony could have fought Thanos on his terms, using two Infinity Stones, the entire team of Avengers plus all his armors and tricks. Tony lambasted Steve about fighting his idea for 'an armor around the world', but that armor isn't worth sh*t if you leave that armored world, is it?

Maybe Steve made some mistakes in the lead up to Infinity War, but Tony (and Dr. Strange, for agreeing) made the worst ones during.