Barry Allen 1986-2009

[lemonpeace]

Love Jeannette and all she did for DC during the late 1970s - early 2000s, but her policy on Barry was made of the same stuff as any Didio edict against Wally in present times. Whether you're in the Barry camp or Wally camp...Jeanette or Dan...passing edicts denying fans their favorites is just...dumb.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I wholeheartedly agree. Editorial should be concerned with overall cohesion, not playing out character vendettas or playing favorites.

[Jon Clark]

You can't possibly have missed the point of Return of Barry Allen worse if you tried. The story of Wally finally overcoming the death of his mentor and stepping out of his shadow is instead turned into a story about how Barry Allen comes back to save Wally when he can't hack it with Thawne. This is literally everything I'm talking about. Ruining Wally for the sake of Barry. Destroying the entire concept of what I and many others consider the best Flash comic ever.

But if that and Wally's run is a sacrifice you're willing to make for Barry Allen's retroactive permanence then congratulations. This DC might as well be your DC.

It's preposterous to think you get stories anything close to the character development and writing with Barry being alive the whole time. You probably don't ever even get Waid's run in the first place.

No, you can't keep Barry alive and have Wally cast as "better than "Barry" as his main characterization like we read it.. The point of a Return of Barry Allen in this revised timeline is to do just that- return Barry. But for Wally it would be to develop the character into something other than "same Flash, different face". To give Wally a push to develop into more than "runs fast, idolizes predecessor, dates reporter" which is Silver Age Barry (especially in a Clutter Earth where Barry and Jay were both living in the same world). Odds are that if this happened the story unfolds a lot differently but not in a "Wally gets thrown under the bus" move.

[Dred]

No, you can't keep Barry alive and have Wally cast as "better than "Barry" as his main characterization like we read it.. The point of a Return of Barry Allen in this revised timeline is to do just that- return Barry. But for Wally it would be to develop the character into something other than "same Flash, different face". To give Wally a push to develop into more than "runs fast, idolizes predecessor, dates reporter" which is Silver Age Barry (especially in a Clutter Earth where Barry and Jay were both living in the same world). Odds are that if this happened the story unfolds a lot differently but not in a "Wally gets thrown under the bus" move.

Wally was already something other than "same Flash, different face" and that you're saying this about Wally is so beyond absurd that I can only imagine you just greatly, greatly dislike Wally. Like jeez, dude.

You've thrown Wally under the bus, then backed the bus back over him, and parked there.

Say what you want plainly. You don't like Wally and you like Barry and your preferred timeline is one that features Barry the whole way through. Which is an alright opinion to have, but pretending it's somehow at the benefit of Wally is downright preposterous.

[Jim Kelly]

Mark Waid and Geoff Johns did a lot to make Wally progressively more like Barry Allen, so that they look very similar in the final wash. If it was the Mike Baron and the Bill Loebs Flash then there would be a distinction. But I can see why it becomes difficult to use Wally and Barry at the same time. Barry gets accused of being too much like Wally and Wally isn't much different. However, I think the reason that Wally became more like Barry was because they couldn't use Barry, so Waid and Johns, having a nostalgia for the old Flash, tried to shift Wally into that position.

[Jon Clark]

Wally was already something other than "same Flash, different face" and that you're saying this about Wally is so beyond absurd that I can only imagine you just greatly, greatly dislike Wally. Like jeez, dude.

You've thrown Wally under the bus, then backed the bus back over him, and parked there.

Say what you want plainly. You don't like Wally and you like Barry and your preferred timeline is one that features Barry the whole way through. Which is an alright opinion to have, but pretending it's somehow at the benefit of Wally is downright preposterous.

I like Wally. I just don't think he is such a weak character that he can't co-exist with Barry. Or that he needs stories like Return of Barry Allen to give him meaning.

You are the one who seems to be insistent that any scenario that isn't Wally-centric fails to properly develop his character.

I think it is possible that if Barry had survived Crisis but largely stayed off panel in the 30th century while writers worked on developing Wally as Flash those writers could have come up with similar but not identical stories for Wally. Once you change the stuff in 1986 that moving forward you don't get the same story beats where you could compare say "Flash #50" that we read with "Flash #50" in the Barry-survived timeline by asking how individual plot points changed. Odds are that once we got to the same era as Return of Barry Allen Wally might be a similar character but Waid wouldn't be telling the exact same story. And things like Terminal Velocity might have both Barry and Wally playing roles rather than Jesse Quick's fake-out as "the next Flash".

[kingaliencracker]

By the accounts of those who wrote the early era Wally books this is not the case. Much like these days, they'd constantly get harassed about bringing Barry back. It's one of the things that inspired Waid to do Return of Barry Allen (amusingly, Thawne was going to be a prototype version of Bart in his original planning but he and Augustyn changed it on a whim!).

It wasn't until after ROBA that Wally settled into his role in a way that sustained itself.

I have no doubt there was some level of pressure by certain external forces to have Wally succeed or to otherwise bring Barry back. But it's clear that that pressure wasn't THAT influential or overbearing. Wally's book went along for 5 years of generally pedestrian sales before Mark Waid took over, and we didn't get RoBA until several months into his run.

[Dred]

I like Wally. I just don't think he is such a weak character that he can't co-exist with Barry. Or that he needs stories like Return of Barry Allen to give him meaning.

You are the one who seems to be insistent that any scenario that isn't Wally-centric fails to properly develop his character.

I think it is possible that if Barry had survived Crisis but largely stayed off panel in the 30th century while writers worked on developing Wally as Flash those writers could have come up with similar but not identical stories for Wally. Once you change the stuff in 1986 that moving forward you don't get the same story beats where you could compare say "Flash #50" that we read with "Flash #50" in the Barry-survived timeline by asking how individual plot points changed. Odds are that once we got to the same era as Return of Barry Allen Wally might be a similar character but Waid wouldn't be telling the exact same story. And things like Terminal Velocity might have both Barry and Wally playing roles rather than Jesse Quick's fake-out as "the next Flash".

Such a weak character? What, to not be able to survive losing the vast majority of his good stories?

Wally's stories and character growth from those stories are the reason he's a strong character. If you take those things away from him you revert him to what he originally DID start off as -- a copy of Barry Allen.

Thing like Terminal Velocity don't happen because Terminal Velocity is a kindling love story between Wally and Linda, which, you know, kind of played out for Iris and Barry who are already married. You can't bring Barry back and pretend he's a supporting character. It's silly. Waid wouldn't even be TELLING the stories because ROBA is the only thing that kept Wally around. Then again, you want Barry around so Wally might as well have never been The Flash by your reckoning.

Wally wouldn't even be close to a similar character without ROBA. It's a cataclysmic moment in his character arc. Nothing about him afterwards can be looked at the same as it was before. There's a reason it's such a definitive story and it's not because Barry Allen showed up in it. It's literally because of the opposite of that.

[married guy]

Mark Waid and Geoff Johns did a lot to make Wally progressively more like Barry Allen, so that they look very similar in the final wash. If it was the Mike Baron and the Bill Loebs Flash then there would be a distinction. But I can see why it becomes difficult to use Wally and Barry at the same time. Barry gets accused of being too much like Wally and Wally isn't much different. However, I think the reason that Wally became more like Barry was because they couldn't use Barry, so Waid and Johns, having a nostalgia for the old Flash, tried to shift Wally into that position.

For once Jim, I disagree with you!
I thought Mark Waid went out of his way to make Wally different from Barry.
How many Flash Facts did Wally ever come out with? (Morrison's first JLA arc DID have Wally give a Flash Fact to great effect)
Although Johns DID bring him a little closer in line with Barry, he walked the fine line really well so Wally STILL sounded like Wally.

[Dred]

The idea that Waid era Wally was becoming closer to Barry because of the vague reason that his love interest was also a reporter is so silly. I guess Barry Allen is a Superman clone.

You can read Barry and Wally side by side in the era by Waid and if you can't spot the difference then you're intentionally obfuscating yourself.

[Hol]

Fans tend to forget how bad the Flash title got prior to Barry's death in CRISIS. So the incentive to bring him back following CRISIS was minimal.

Big Sir anyone?

[Hol]

For once Jim, I disagree with you!
I thought Mark Waid went out of his way to make Wally different from Barry.
How many Flash Facts did Wally ever come out with? (Morrison's first JLA arc DID have Wally give a Flash Fact to great effect)
Although Johns DID bring him a little closer in line with Barry, he walked the fine line really well so Wally STILL sounded like Wally.

Yeah I used to hear this a lot...that Johns made Wally more like Barry. Why? Because he gave him a day job and a secret ID again? So what? Most super heroes have those. Throughout his entire run Wally West sounded like Wally West. He never reminded me of Barry Allen.

[Hol]

The idea that Waid era Wally was becoming closer to Barry because of the vague reason that his love interest was also a reporter is so silly. I guess Barry Allen is a Superman clone.

You can read Barry and Wally side by side in the era by Waid and if you can't spot the difference then you're intentionally obfuscating yourself.

I agree 110%.

[Buried Alien]

Fans tend to forget how bad the Flash title got prior to Barry's death in CRISIS. So the incentive to bring him back following CRISIS was minimal.

They STILL didn't need to kill him off and shelve him for two decades. If Cary Bates was out of ideas, hire someone else.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[kingaliencracker]

They STILL didn't need to kill him off and shelve him for two decades. If Cary Bates was out of ideas, hire someone else.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I'm not disagreeing per se but I also think it tells you how DC felt about Barry in that they did absolutely nothing to "fix" the problem with the Flash title prior to ending it and then killing him off.

Bottom line is that it's pretty clear there wasn't a lot of love for Barry in DC in the 80s and 90s.

[Bruce Wayne]

They STILL didn't need to kill him off and shelve him for two decades. If Cary Bates was out of ideas, hire someone else.

Given that the current class of writers aren't doing any better, I'd say the problem was with the character.