Barry Allen 1986-2009

[Dred]

I'm not disagreeing per se but I also think it tells you how DC felt about Barry in that they did absolutely nothing to "fix" the problem with the Flash title prior to ending it and then killing him off.

Bottom line is that it's pretty clear there wasn't a lot of love for Barry in DC in the 80s and 90s.

Their idea of the fix was stuff like the Death of Iris and Trial of The Flash. They thought taking the perfect guy with the perfect life through the mud would be an interesting turn. But Trial was so long and slow and gaudy that it actually helped build up the boring moniker.

[Jim Kelly]

For once Jim, I disagree with you!

Hey, it's okay to disagree with me. I think you missed the point I was getting at, but that's okay. I wasn't trying to start anything; however, it's not worth discussing further on this thread, which has got a little too nettlesome for me.

[BohemiaDrinker]

I've been busy, haven't had the whole thread, so I'll go directly top the op: sorry if I cover already threaded ground.

I'm curious to see why DC put him on ice for so long, or if their intention was to put Barry on ice permanently.

Yes, the initial intention was for it to be permanent.Someone high up at DC editorial had it in for the Flash back then. The original idea was to completely scrape the concept and create a new hero using only the name. Pitches ran around DC, some almost made it, but at the end they got cold feet and decided to go with Wally taking over the mantle.

If it was permanent, I'm guessing it was because Wally proved to be a fan favorite once he took the Flash mantle. But if it wasn't why didn't they bring him back sooner?

Not exactly, but yes. Initial runs with Wally (by Mike Baron and Bill Mesner Loebs) had varying degrees od success but didn't set the charts on fire, or fell intro critical aclaim (even though, personally, I would say that Loebs run is great). When Waid and Augustyn took the title, though, they were able to hit all the right notes and Wally really took of s a fan favorite. Thing is, they did it kind of too well: at that point, the whole "grim n' gritty" thing the 80's had going was still present all over DC, but getting tiresome, DC's timid attempts at Images pouch fashion went nowhere and all. But Flash, a book that ironically reconnected with the silver age and somecore DC values was solid, solid enough to influence everything else. And that's the point we get the first major influx of legacy heroes: Kyle Rayner (even though not the first legacy GL), Connor Hawke, Jack Knight etc. And for a long while, that legacy aspect became the face of DC and was successful. With Wally being the most successful of the bunch and the starter of the trend, I guess that an editorial that didn't particularly liked Barry also saw no reason to even think of bringing him back. And then, Barry's death and sacrifice and whatever had also lost all of it's shock value and gained an iconic status which, I think, most creators would prefer not to mess with. (A point that I agree with: there were ways to bring Barry back without messing with his death. But that's another conversation).

Even when Quiver brought back Ollie, opening the Way for GL: Rebirth later on, Barry's return seemed sort of unthinkable. But our dear Dan became really invested in making it happen at some point, to the point where sabotaging the Flash franchise to open way for it seemed like a valid choice. (One they took, btw).

[BohemiaDrinker]

Yet when they did a Flash TV show in 1990, it was Barry Allen that they used for the series--and there was THE FLASH TV SPECIAL (1991) comic book, with two stories about that Barry. I have to wonder if the series had been more successful and gone on for a few years, if that might have pushed DC to bring him back from the dead.

I is possible. If I'm not mistaken, Waid once said that when he took over the book, he expected to be cancelled soon because the show had just been cancelled. So, if the show was successful, maybe they'd try some continuity gymnastics align with it.

Love Jeannette and all she did for DC during the late 1970s - early 2000s, but her policy on Barry was made of the same stuff as any Didio edict against Wally in present times. Whether you're in the Barry camp or Wally camp...Jeanette or Dan...passing edicts denying fans their favorites is just...dumb.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I will never deny the editorial sabotage Barry suffered back in the 80's. It was ugly. But I don't think I can agree with the "made of the same stuff"...

Fans tend to forget how bad the Flash title got prior to Barry's death in CRISIS. So the incentive to bring him back following CRISIS was minimal.

Well, the thing here is that Barry's title right before Crisis wasn't a reason for them deciding to kill him off. It got bad because they had already decided to kill him off for over two years, which made Cary Batesd just say "well, **** it, then" and stretch the Trial storyline until Crisis.

They STILL didn't need to kill him off and shelve him for two decades. If Cary Bates was out of ideas, hire someone else.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Yeah, as I said on the previous posts, there were ways for a healthy dose of Barry even with him dying in Crisis (I'm sure you remember my idea a few weeks back). But it's also unfair to blame Bates here: he was a victim in the whole thing. Sort of.

[Hol]

Given that the current class of writers aren't doing any better, I'd say the problem was with the character.

Agreed. Barry has been back ten years and he hasn't had a good run yet IMO.

[Buried Alien]

Given that the current class of writers aren't doing any better, I'd say the problem was with the character.

Agreed. Barry has been back ten years and he hasn't had a good run yet IMO.

...and yet, Barry carried the flag of the FLASH franchise for thirty years spanning the Silver Age and Bronze Age, and whose presence never ceased being relevant in the decades that followed.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Bruce Wayne]

...and yet, Barry carried the flag of the FLASH franchise for thirty years spanning the Silver Age and Bronze Age, and whose presence never ceased being relevant in the decades that followed.

The demographics of the readership in the Silver Age were completely different then compared to right now with things like the direct market . He may have "carried the flag", but in the current market Wally was doing most of the heavy lifting and is the Flash that both the creators at DC and the readership gravitates to. Barry is really just keeping the seat warm for Wally until Didio goes.

[Dred]

Wally is never getting back on the seat again because, literally purely because, his origin is not compatible with external media status quos.

[The Darknight Detective]

Wally is never getting back on the seat again because, literally purely because, his origin is not compatible with external media status quos.

While I wouldn't say never, every TV episode or movie appearance Barry has pushes Wally away that much further. Nobody should expect Wally back for at least a few decades.

[Dred]

Right, so never, because the comic industry as we conceive it will fold before that if decades of sales declines are any indication.

The very second Barry came back it was over for Wally. It was the truth that everyone saw when it was announced years ago with their enormous ad campaign to promote it in Final Crisis. That's just the way things are.