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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    Love Jeannette and all she did for DC during the late 1970s - early 2000s, but her policy on Barry was made of the same stuff as any Didio edict against Wally in present times. Whether you're in the Barry camp or Wally camp...Jeanette or Dan...passing edicts denying fans their favorites is just...dumb.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    You can't possibly be serious on this one. Like, how can you possibly look at what Barry got in that era vs what has happened to Wally in this era and say it's the same stuff? Seriously.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    You can't possibly be serious on this one. Like, how can you possibly look at what Barry got in that era vs what has happened to Wally in this era and say it's the same stuff? Seriously.
    That's not the point either (is there something about missing the point today?): from a fan perspective, a character was not appearing on any kind of regular basis...due to editorial edict. That's the only point I'm interested in making here; everything else is outside the scope of what I'm discussing.

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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    That's not the point either (is there something about missing the point today?): from a fan perspective, a character was not appearing on any kind of regular basis...due to editorial edict. That's the only point I'm interested in making here; everything else is outside the scope of what I'm discussing.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    You drew a direct parallel where there clearly isn't one. You said it was made of the same stuff as Didio's edict when it is demonstrably not. Don't draw a false equivalence.

    Like seriously, how do you expect a Wally West solo comic book to have ever existed if Barry Allen was just always there forever and never left? Whatever edict you're imagining isn't made of the same stuff because it wasn't the same situation and the characters were treated with a massively different amount of respect. And I'm pretty sure you know that.
    Last edited by Dred; 06-08-2019 at 02:26 PM.

  4. #19
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    It always bothers me when the publishers tie themselves up in knots over why they can't indulge fans' interests--owing to some editorial decision. Just because there's a certain continuity in place, it shouldn't prevent us from getting other stories we like. So what if Superman was never Superboy in the given mainstream comics--comics about Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes were still worth doing. Big deal if the Justice Society aren't around, it's still good to see the adventures of Jay Garrick in the 1940s. Maybe the Adam West version of Batman is not the horse that DC is backing, but we can still have Batman '66 comics--it's not going to hurt anybody. And you might say there's always reprints--but sometimes you want to see how a modern writer and artist would handle that version of the character, with the modern story telling techniques of today.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    You drew a direct parallel where there clearly isn't one. You said it was made of the same stuff as Didio's edict when it is demonstrably not. Don't draw a false equivalence.

    Like seriously, how do you expect a Wally West solo comic book to have ever existed if Barry Allen was just always there forever and never left? Whatever edict you're imagining isn't made of the same stuff because it wasn't the same situation and the characters were treated with a massively different amount of respect. And I'm pretty sure you know that.
    Not to mention of course Kahn era DC always was considering bringing back Barry if the sales fell through if we go by Waid and all his interviews going back to the 90s. Meanwhile Didio era DC has done everything to undermine Wally so that Barry can be the only Flash.

  6. #21
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    If Barry hadn't actually died in the Crisis, then it stands to reason that he would have returned to his wife and children in the 30th century--not gone back to the 20th century. That would be how I would have split the difference between Wally and Barry. Knowing that there was a Flash taking care of Central City, Barry would have felt okay with remaining in the 30th century to see his kids grow up. His story could have tied in with the Legion--thus giving the LSH a hook that would have kept them relevant to readers in the 1990s.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Ellingham View Post
    Because DC's publisher in the early 1980s, Jeannette Kahn, wanted Barry killed off in their universe-resetting 1985/1986 crossover - Crisis on Infinite Earths. The writer of Crisis - Marv Wolfman, didn't want to do that, but wasn't given a choice.

    Their intent was to recreate the Flash as a new, female character with electrical powers instead of speed powers. But that fell through. So having Wally West pick up Barry's uniform and job was a late change to their post-Crisis plans.

    And it worked well enough. The early sales weren't great; apparently the book was close to cancellation in the early 1990s. But then writer Mark Waid took over, and his run turned Flash into one of DC's most successful (and best) solo books of the mid/late 90s.

    Once Jeannette Kahn left DC in 2002, the people in charge were less adamant about not changing Crisis' various outcomes. Barry came back a few years after that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    If Barry hadn't actually died in the Crisis, then it stands to reason that he would have returned to his wife and children in the 30th century--not gone back to the 20th century. That would be how I would have split the difference between Wally and Barry. Knowing that there was a Flash taking care of Central City, Barry would have felt okay with remaining in the 30th century to see his kids grow up. His story could have tied in with the Legion--thus giving the LSH a hook that would have kept them relevant to readers in the 1990s.
    I like that idea. Barry was a genius and would have fit in nicely with the LSH.

    Also....seriously, they were going to replace a speedster with an electric gal? *shudders* Idiots.
    Parental care is way exhausting. Gained insight into what my parents went through when I was a baby. Not fun, but what ya gonna do? (Read comics, obviously.)

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    It always bothers me when the publishers tie themselves up in knots over why they can't indulge fans' interests--owing to some editorial decision. Just because there's a certain continuity in place, it shouldn't prevent us from getting other stories we like. So what if Superman was never Superboy in the given mainstream comics--comics about Superboy and the Legion of Super-Heroes were still worth doing. Big deal if the Justice Society aren't around, it's still good to see the adventures of Jay Garrick in the 1940s. Maybe the Adam West version of Batman is not the horse that DC is backing, but we can still have Batman '66 comics--it's not going to hurt anybody. And you might say there's always reprints--but sometimes you want to see how a modern writer and artist would handle that version of the character, with the modern story telling techniques of today.
    C'mon Jim, that'd NEVER fly mate.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyer View Post
    I like that idea. Barry was a genius and would have fit in nicely with the LSH.

    Also....seriously, they were going to replace a speedster with an electric gal? *shudders* Idiots.
    Indeed. They didn't need to kill him in CRISIS. He was in the future already anyway, and seemed to have a destiny with it since reasonably early in his run as the Flash. They should have sent him there to give Wally a shot at it.

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  10. #25
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    What is the point of anything of Wally's character arc if Barry is just fine and retired? You can't get The Return of Barry Allen if Barry never dies. Iris never comes back with Bart. The entire creation of the Flash family spun out of that. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too, when the fact is that Barry's death is fundamental to Wally's character arc and growth and the development of The Flash title as a whole. If your goal is that Barry sticks around forever and Wally just pops up as a fill in who will never grow from this point then fine. But it's still trashing one for the other. You're not escaping that. No one's buying that Wally's the real Flash when we're just waiting for Barry to come back from the future any day now. Wally's run fails without ROBA and Barry comes back earlier, anyhow.
    Last edited by Dred; 06-09-2019 at 10:30 AM.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    What is the point of anything of Wally's character arc if Barry is just fine and retired? You can't get The Return of Barry Allen if Barry never dies.
    You could have Barry's "death" in that if he returned from the Crisis but not to the 20th century, he could be thought dead by Wally and others at least for a little while.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    You could have Barry's "death" in that if he returned from the Crisis but not to the 20th century, he could be thought dead by Wally and others at least for a little while.
    The Return of Barry Allen is predicated by Iris creating the Flash biography called The Life Story of The Flash, the tell all book about Barry's life and history that she only made because he was dead. A memoir for their kids who would never know him. A historical piece of info so the world would know who Barry Allen was...not is.

    Speaking of great stories we don't get if you just pretend Barry Allen is dead that aren't just Wally West centric: The Life Story of The Flash!

    Trying to smooth over all the edges so Barry can be alive removes all the complexion and impetus from the story. And that's okay if your primary goal is more Barry Allen. It just will and always has meant less Wally West. We probably never get any of Wally's stand out stories besides maybe Born to Run and the WML era, neither of which were the sales rockets needed to keep his run alive. You'd just have to assume in this alternate universe that Waid makes something equally as good and bombastic.

    But boy does the title "Return of Barry Allen" lose all its luster if he never died. Why would Barry have gone back to Wally's time if he was living happily in the future with Iris? Why would fans even care if Barry's just been around this whole time, getting his own continued stories in the future like everyone here seems to think is what would've worked?

    It's scuttling one to suit the other. That's how it's always been.
    Last edited by Dred; 06-09-2019 at 10:38 AM.

  13. #28
    Incredible Member kingaliencracker's Avatar
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    Fans tend to forget how bad the Flash title got prior to Barry's death in CRISIS. So the incentive to bring him back following CRISIS was minimal.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    The Return of Barry Allen is predicated by Iris creating the Flash biography called The Life Story of The Flash, the tell all book about Barry's life and history that she only made because he was dead. A memoir for their kids who would never know him. A historical piece of info so the world would know who Barry Allen was...not is.

    Speaking of great stories we don't get if you just pretend Barry Allen is dead that aren't just Wally West centric: The Life Story of The Flash!

    Trying to smooth over all the edges so Barry can be alive removes all the complexion and impetus from the story.
    Things play out differently, sure. The point is that you can use the loss of Barry in the 20th to still motivate Wally to take up the role.

    Some stories are a little changed- Return of Barry Allen could be done but with it being a more twisted timeline. History says Barry returned in that year. Eobard shows up thinking it is his chance to fill Barry's shoes. The real Barry shows up at the end both to defeat Eobard and because he needs to fulfill his role. Iris' book is written as a sort of paradox- it has to be written for both Eobard and Barry to read it and come back to play their parts.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingaliencracker View Post
    Fans tend to forget how bad the Flash title got prior to Barry's death in CRISIS. So the incentive to bring him back following CRISIS was minimal.
    By the accounts of those who wrote the early era Wally books this is not the case. Much like these days, they'd constantly get harassed about bringing Barry back. It's one of the things that inspired Waid to do Return of Barry Allen (amusingly, Thawne was going to be a prototype version of Bart in his original planning but he and Augustyn changed it on a whim!).

    It wasn't until after ROBA that Wally settled into his role in a way that sustained itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    Things play out differently, sure. The point is that you can use the loss of Barry in the 20th to still motivate Wally to take up the role.

    Some stories are a little changed- Return of Barry Allen could be done but with it being a more twisted timeline. History says Barry returned in that year. Eobard shows up thinking it is his chance to fill Barry's shoes. The real Barry shows up at the end both to defeat Eobard and because he needs to fulfill his role. Iris' book is written as a sort of paradox- it has to be written for both Eobard and Barry to read it and come back to play their parts.
    You can't possibly have missed the point of Return of Barry Allen worse if you tried. The story of Wally finally overcoming the death of his mentor and stepping out of his shadow is instead turned into a story about how Barry Allen comes back to save Wally when he can't hack it with Thawne. This is literally everything I'm talking about. Ruining Wally for the sake of Barry. Destroying the entire concept of what I and many others consider the best Flash comic ever.

    But if that and Wally's run is a sacrifice you're willing to make for Barry Allen's retroactive permanence then congratulations. This DC might as well be your DC.

    It's preposterous to think you get stories anything close to the character development and writing with Barry being alive the whole time. You probably don't ever even get Waid's run in the first place.
    Last edited by Dred; 06-09-2019 at 12:10 PM.

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