Marston today: feminism, progressiveness, and values

[Agent Z]

Jenkins and Pérez had the Amazons be mistaken or incorrect about things, but certainly didn't set up neon flash signs over the Amazons with "They are wrong about this thing that lies at the core of their construction".

I feel this is a distinction without a difference considering that Perez put a considerable amount of focus on the Amazon ways needing to change. Again, as long as the writers don't go too far with the Amazons' flaws I think it should be acceptable.

From a narrative standpoint, there is also an issue with planning to put in lessons Themyscira is to learn from the start, because it messes with what Diana is to do as a superhero. Rather than changing Man's World to something better, it becomes about changing Themyscira.

It isn't a binary choice. Changing Themyscira also doesn't preclude changing man's world.

Better working conditions, yes. But Gloria Bullfinch remained in charge, and affirmed as the boss.

If Gloria is doing a good job, what's wrong with keeping her in her position?

[Alpha]

Jenkins and Pérez had the Amazons be mistaken or incorrect about things, but certainly didn't set up neon flash signs over the Amazons with "They are wrong about this thing that lies at the core of their construction".

I'm trying to recall if there was ever a time where they didn't believe in a distinction between the genders. I would say that there might have been a lot of stories where that distinction wasn't made clear (like the movie) but I don't think there was ever a story where they didn't believe there were qualitative distinctions based on gender. And the thing is that I certainly believe a society where women have never been oppressed is inherently better than ours, not just from a moral standpoint but also for adressing other issues and achieving technological progress. But that doesn't mean that THE major distinction between our world and theirs should result in an utopia, and I believe that them having to learn something is also good. Isolationism also means that you won't be able to learn from other societies.

[kjn]

It isn't a binary choice. Changing Themyscira also doesn't preclude changing man's world.

How often is Diana depicted as an effective agent of change for Man's World?

I can easily see that Diana going outside brings change to Themyscira. But it's just as important that Themyscira is depicted as a good place as her origin. It's not her Krypton, it's her Smallville.

If Gloria is doing a good job, what's wrong with keeping her in her position?

Thing is, Gloria Bullfinch treated her employees terribly before Diana reformed her, and the story never really questions the fact that Gloria should be in charge. The comic never interrogates capitalism or the class system. (Note that Marston did so to some degree in the previous story, "The Milk Swindle" from Sensation Comics #7.)

[Agent Z]

How often is Diana depicted as an effective agent of change for Man's World?

I can easily see that Diana going outside brings change to Themyscira. But it's just as important that Themyscira is depicted as a good place as her origin. It's not her Krypton, it's her Smallville.

Change doesn't happen that often in Themyscira, in fairness. Or if it does, it all too often gets reversed. A good example is the removal of Jiminez's democratic government after Amazons Attack.

Thing is, Gloria Bullfinch treated her employees terribly before Diana reformed her, and the story never really questions the fact that Gloria should be in charge. The comic never interrogates capitalism or the class system. (Note that Marston did so to some degree in the previous story, "The Milk Swindle" from Sensation Comics #7.)

From what I recall, Bullfinch wasn't initially aware of the bad conditions at the store and it was the manager Mr Googins who was abusive to the employees.

I think this is the most I've done in defending a Wonder Woman story from the Golden Age.

[Comics N' Toons]

I will add... that... even though Marston's run featured the bondage stuff, which to my younger eyes looked very anti-feminist, having researched and studied the stories/context/history of Diana more and more, I consider Marston a hero!

Do you guys think Marston's run was the greatest on the WW character?

[Agent Z]

edited post.

[Gaius]

I will add... that... even though Marston's run featured the bondage stuff, which to my younger eyes looked very anti-feminist, having researched and studied the stories/context/history of Diana more and more, I consider Marston a hero!

Do you guys think Marston's run was the greatest on the WW character?

There's stuff I like and some stories but not in my opinion, it's probably one I have more respect for than actually like.

[Agent Z]

There's stuff I like and some stories but not in my opinion, it's probably one I have more respect for than actually like.

Same for me.

[SiegePerilous02]

I will add... that... even though Marston's run featured the bondage stuff, which to my younger eyes looked very anti-feminist, having researched and studied the stories/context/history of Diana more and more, I consider Marston a hero!

Do you guys think Marston's run was the greatest on the WW character?

I think its among the best. There isn't really a lot of competition in fairness, but it's easily among her top 5. It's progressive for its time in a lot ways, but also inevitably VERY dated with some wrong headed ideas. If nothing else, they are the most interesting run of WW comics not for the content or its message, but because it's interesting to see a creator put so much of their thought processes into a creation, warts and all. And there are a LOT of warts: Marston still has a lot of sexist ideas and the less said about the depictions of non-white characters the better. Still, some basic ideas are still progressive and rare compared to even today's mainstream comics: emphasis on mothers over fathers, the ideas behind the Amazons (vs. Azz's run), Etta may be a fat joke but she's more than just that, themes of sisterhood and cooperation with the Amazons and Holliday Girls, most of her rogues gallery being female, etc.

I think Perez, Jimenez, Rucka and LoWW were able to keep some of the basic core elements and more effectively evolve them while ditching the more problematic stuff (ex: LoWW's Etta being very true to the original while having less jokes at her expense), along with adding more of their own stuff, but Marston's comics still have some of their own charms they haven't been able to completely replicate.

[Jcogginsa]

I will add... that... even though Marston's run featured the bondage stuff, which to my younger eyes looked very anti-feminist, having researched and studied the stories/context/history of Diana more and more, I consider Marston a hero!

Do you guys think Marston's run was the greatest on the WW character?

I dunno if it's the best from a pure writing perspective, but it should be the basis for any new version of the character. Simply modernize the elements that no longer work, IE remove the Gender Essentialism that has been discussed so much in this thread

[Alpha]

I dunno if it's the best from a pure writing perspective, but it should be the basis for any new version of the character. Simply modernize the elements that no longer work, IE remove the Gender Essentialism that has been discussed so much in this thread

But how can they remove gender essentialism in a morally evolved society only composed of women? It seems inherent to them. And again, it's ok, as long as it's something that is addressed and hopefully resolved inside the stories.

[lotchj]

I will add... that... even though Marston's run featured the bondage stuff, which to my younger eyes looked very anti-feminist, having researched and studied the stories/context/history of Diana more and more, I consider Marston a hero!

Do you guys think Marston's run was the greatest on the WW character?

WHY??? I don't think of him as a hero. I think the bondage stuff hurts WW, even until this day that bondage stuff turns a lot of people off!!

[Comics N' Toons]

WHY??? I don't think of him as a hero. I think the bondage stuff hurts WW, even until to this day that bondage stuff turns a lot of people off!!

Fair points! Well, I suppose Marston could very well be criticized for the bondage angle, especially since WW was usually put into these submissive positions... Perhaps that's why I viewed it as anti-feminist in my youth... on the whole tho, sexual liberation is important, especially in a country like the U.S. that is historically afraid of discussing anything sexual in polite society. That said, the reason I consider Marston a hero was because of his progressive attitudes and beliefs toward altternative relations/sex and his openly polyamory lifestyle in a time when that was unheard of.

[Alpha]

I agree, as much as I can see that it isn't the ideology we need, it's still crazy that he was able to write about that stuff and I'm sad that we haven't seen more people bring a purposeful vision to Wonder Woman. She went from being this revolutionary character to just being a vague symbol of compassionatr strength whose main goal is just being a symbolic figure even inside within the reality of the comics

[Nyssane]

I think Perez, Jimenez, Rucka and LoWW were able to keep some of the basic core elements and more effectively evolve them while ditching the more problematic stuff (ex: LoWW's Etta being very true to the original while having less jokes at her expense), along with adding more of their own stuff, but Marston's comics still have some of their own charms they haven't been able to completely replicate.

I wonder if we'll ever get another Etta Candy as good as the one we got in LoWW.

Marston's characterization of Diana is unparalleled. She's strong, sassy, compassionate, and confident. We lose a lot of her personality in other runs (sorry, Perez), even if those runs are stellar themselves.